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  • cacio
    replied
    lgmayka:

    I don't know much about M* to be able to say anything, but I'm always wondering how many of these are mis-assignments. Each of them should be asking ftdna why they were assigned the way they were. My guess is that FTDNA looked at 223 or similar things without giving much thought. As said, I've already seen many misassignments.

    For instance, just a quick compare shows that TUU8R, VNJQK and XCTZP's closest matches are very native C's. Of course, the others may be the mistakes, but still, one wonders.

    cacio

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Have you considered Native American ancestry (through French Canadian)?

    Yes, I know that the conventional wisdom accepts only mtDNA haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X as Native American, but we keep seeing disturbing signs of other ancient haplogroups appearing among Native Americans, even those on reservation (and hence much less likely to be "colonial admixture"). See MitoSearch entries

    CFM66, Apache, Arizona
    ZV8RA, mixed African and Native American, Arkansas
    QRUB7, Venezuela (near Amazon)
    TUU8R, Mexico, no 16223 mutation
    CZDSF, Mexico, no 16223 mutation
    VNJQK, Mexico
    MHGCF, Trinidad & Tobago
    XCTZP, Chile
    5SRQQ, Nova Scotia
    KCBZV, France

    Leave a comment:


  • Kaiser
    replied
    "The basal motif T12477C, G16129A and C16223T describes M5 lineage of major haplogroup M. It is, however, important to note that G16129A might not be important in defining M5." Phylogeny and Antiquity of M Macrohaplogroup Inferred from Complete mtDNA Sequence of Indian-specific Lineages.

    Also, the paper "Origins and Divergence of Roma (Gypsies)" finds mtDNA M5 being 98% of all M amongst 14 Roma groups studied in Europe.

    Based on the above two surmises, it can be said that in the case under discussion, the person is not M5, hence most likely not a Roma. So, the possibility of M1 remains open even if "you lack 223, but that it is possible that the mutation was reversed in certain M1" (Vraatyah).

    This seems like a very interesting case study!

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    Marttinen:

    I have quickly browsed a couple of things on M.
    My guess at this point is that FTDNA has looked at these (oldish) results, which are a sort of starting point for HVR1 analysis:


    If you look, M's motif is 16223, and the motif he gives for M1 is
    129 189 223 249 311
    which is close to yours (hvr1 was tested only up to 360, and 519 is not very indicative anyway).

    This suggests that 16223 is the most important sign of M, and explains vraatyah's comment about the fact that you lack 223, but that it is possible that the mutation was reversed in certain M1 people. 129 then doesn't seem so indicative, given also that it appears in other groups.

    Still, you do lack 223, so given HVR1 data alone, it's not clear to me whether assuming M1 without 223 is more likely than assuming U1a with 129. Only the coding region can say. Anyway, we'll see if ftdna says anything about it.

    On a related note, Kaiser's first paper says that M1 is the only non-Indian subgroup of M, and is not found in India, but is present in Ethiopia, and from there (in small numbers) in the Middle East and North Africa, as well as the Mediterranean. Given this, I was wrong in my previous post: being non-Indian, M1 cannot be considered a gypsy marker (although, presumably, MxM1 can).

    cacio

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  • Marttinen
    replied
    Thanks for the information to both Kaiser and cacio. You've given me a window of opportunity. I haven't sent an e-mail to ftda because I thought I should hang around here a bit to get acquainted with the "language". Now I pretty much know what to ask and how to ask. I'll get started on it right away.

    With Y DNA there's a site called "haptest xls" where you just have to put in your numbers and the haplogroup is predicted for you by percentages. Is there any such mechanism for mtDNA?

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    Martinnen:
    I did a search on previous post and I found your sequence, I believe.
    16129A 16183C 16189C 16249C 16311C 16519C

    vraatyah (who is the super-expert on mtdna) gave his opinion. So did you verify and send an email to ftdna asking why exactly they assigned you to M*, and whether the assignment was based only on the hvr1 data, or if they tested something else in the coding region? Also, why they assigned you to M* rather than U1a?

    They may have tested something else outside HVR1, in which case this would give the right information. But if they haven't, more possibilities are open, including, as vraatyah said, my own U1a. U1a is characterized by 16189C and 16249C (almost always in conjunction with 16183C), so typically their presence indicates possible U1a. Evidently (I don't know) 16129A must be a sign of M. But then, U1a is much more likely for an Italian. May be 1-3% of Italians (and many more in the south) are U1a, as is true for other Mediterranean countries.

    Of course, they didn't test _my_ coding region, so I may well be M* myself, who knows...

    cacio

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  • Kaiser
    replied
    mtDNA Haplogroup M

    Here are some very useful papers that discuss mtDNA M in considerable detail:

    Phylogeny and antiquity of M macrohaplogroup inferred from
    complete mt DNA sequence of Indian specific lineages

    Revathi Rajkumar et al, 2005


    Most of the Extant mtDNA Boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were Likely Shaped During the Initial Settlement of Eurasia by Anatomically Modern
    Humans.

    Mait Metspalu et al, 2004


    The Place of the Indian mtDNA Variants in the Global Network of
    Maternal Lineages and the Peopling of the Old World

    Toomas Kivisild et al, 1999


    As has been pointed out by Cacio, Haplogroup M has numerous sub-clades but, being a South Asian group, most of the US or Europe-based DNA testing companies have not shown interest in testing for sub-clades, other than M1 (which is found outside South Asia, mostly in East Africa). "Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India (Mait Metspalu)."

    mitosearch shows 70 M* and 12 M-1 entries on its database.

    Cacio & Martinnen: FTDNA does test for M1, so my guess is that the Martinnen's wife is some sub-clade of M, except M1....in which case, its an Indian connection. HVR-I & II values could be compared with those in the above-quoted papers. That way, the sub-clade could possibly be determined and its phylogeography inferred with some certainty.
    Last edited by Kaiser; 26 June 2006, 11:35 PM.

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  • Marttinen
    replied
    I think they just did hvr1. She did the testing through the Genographic Project and the results came to Family Tree DNA. When I put up her scores on another thread a few months ago, someone responded that it looked more like M1 and that M1 was more common in Europe.

    If there's still this big question, are there proceedures that we can follow to know for certain? The budget for tests has evaporated--we originally were OK with only the Genographic project, but I was seduced by the "wanna knows." I had a deep claude test, but I don't think my E3b status was seriously questioned. All of my RAO's and Haplogroup (near) matches were E3b and its subgroups. My wife matches with M*, a few M1's and has an "exact" match with a U (!!).

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    Marttinen:

    regarding the M*, before other considerations, are you sure the assignment is correct? Did you ask which made them decide for M*? (ie only hvr1, or did they test something else?)

    FTDNA sometimes makes mistakes in the assignment, that is, even assuming that the HVR1 data is correct (and of course errors in tests are possible), FTDNA mistakenly assigns those numbers to the wrong haplogroup. In some cases, it is simply not possible to say with HVR1 only- the coding region is necessary.

    Also, given that there is little data on haplogroup M, I doubt FTDNA could be able to assign subgroups of M, so M* doesn't mean anyway she's not M1.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • Victor
    replied
    Originally posted by Marttinen
    The source is here: http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf

    It seems though, that between my memory and reading the table wrong (it was a fair distance across the screen that my eyes had to follow) my percentages were off.

    Macedonian Romani: 29.8% Albanian Kosovar: 45.5%

    It did (Table 1) show, however, that these were the two groups with the highest concentration of E3b1 in Europe.
    Thanks! I had reviewed this study but apparently the Romani's percentages didn't quite register or I forgot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marttinen
    replied
    About the M*

    The person I am interested in was adopted, like me. She was told her mother is French and was supplied with a rather rare French last name. Googling the name gave results (business names, tombstone inscriptions, marriage certificates) around the island of Jersey (which is close to France, anyway) and a couple of scattered areas in Canada (the country this female lives).

    Anyway, I'm trying to figure out how my wife with a French/Italian background ended up with M* mtDNA. She had a couple low-grade (never tested for high grade) matches with people from Spain, the Azores and USA.

    I tried to look for studies of M* percentages in Europe but have come up blank. There are some M1's (and 3 of her low-grade matches were M1's) but M* is always mentioned in connection with the Indian sub-continent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by Marttinen
    The source is here: http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf

    It seems though, that between my memory and reading the table wrong (it was a fair distance across the screen that my eyes had to follow) my percentages were off.

    Macedonian Romani: 29.8% Albanian Kosovar: 45.5%

    It did (Table 1) show, however, that these were the two groups with the highest concentration of E3b1 in Europe.
    What caught my eye in that Pericic, et al, study, as an R1b1c guy, was the comment that 43% of Ossetian males are R1b.

    I wasn't aware of that.

    I know the Ossetians are not gypsies, and gypsies are the topic of this thread.

    I was just surprised to read that.

    The Ossetians are supposed to be the descendants of the Alans, Sarmatians, and Scythians.

    Interesting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marttinen
    replied
    The source is here: http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf

    It seems though, that between my memory and reading the table wrong (it was a fair distance across the screen that my eyes had to follow) my percentages were off.

    Macedonian Romani: 29.8% Albanian Kosovar: 45.5%

    It did (Table 1) show, however, that these were the two groups with the highest concentration of E3b1 in Europe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Victor
    replied
    Originally posted by Marttinen
    I remember a recent article I read that placed Macedonian Roma as 44% E3b1. This was the greatest percentage of E3b1's in the Balkans (maybe even in Europe) outside of the Kosovar Albanians.

    Now, about mtDNA. Would it be a good chance that someone who is from an established family in Europe (in this case, France) and is Haplogroup M* would have a genetic connection to the Roma?
    That would be an interesting finding. Please read the abstract below which seems to show a different picture.

    Forensic Sci Int. 2005 Nov 25;154(2-3):257-261.

    Population genetics of 8 Y chromosome STR loci in Macedonians and Macedonian Romani (Gypsy).

    Pericic M, Klaric IM, Lauc LB, Janicijevic B, Dordevic D, Efremovska L, Rudan P.

    Institute for Anthropological Research, Amruseva 8, 10000 Zagreb, Croatia.

    Eight Y chromosome short tandem repeat (STR) polymorphisms (DYS19, DYS385, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393) were analyzed in Macedonians (n=84) and Macedonian Romani ethnic group (n=68). Observed allelic frequency distribution and locus diversity values in Macedonians correspond closer to neighboring southeastern European populations than (mostly) western European populations, whereas observed allelic frequency distribution and locus diversity values in Macedonian Romani, as expected based on their Asian (Indian) origin, differ from both neighboring southeastern and (mostly) western European populations. Sixty-six (78.57%) haplotypes appeared in single copies in Macedonians and 15 (22.06%) in Macedonian Romani. The most frequent Macedonian haplotypes (DYS19-DYS385-DYS389I-DYS389II-DYS390-DYS391-DYS392-DYS393) 16-14/15-13-31-24-11-11-13 and 13-16/18-13-30-24-10-11-13 were found in 7 and 6 copies, respectively. The most frequent Macedonian Romani haplotype 15-15/17-14-29-22-10-11-12 was found in 18 males. Total haplotype diversity was 0.9885+/-0.0058 (Macedonians) and 0.9008+/-0.0242 (Macedonian Romani).

    PMID: 16182975 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
    If you noticed Sixty-six (78.57%) haplotypes appeared in single copies in Macedonians and 15 (22.06%) in Macedonian Romani. Running the haplotypes in the abstract thru Whit's predictor, the 78 percent is comprised by E3b and I1b while the 22% is comprised by H. The 78% are simply Macedonians and the remaining 22% are the Macedonian Romani.

    If you find the article you refer to please let us know.


    p.s. Sorry that the full text article of the abstract above is not freely available online.

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  • Kaiser
    replied
    Martinnen --- Presence of mtDNA 'M' in an "established European (French) family" would surely qualify for an Indian connection, but given the close-knit endogamous Roma communites, is quite improbable. Elopement of a pretty gypsy girl with a French nobleman could, however, be a rare happenstance. But have you heard of such liasions that you have referred to?

    Leave a comment:

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