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Celts were haplogroup I?

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  • Celts were haplogroup I?

    On the Genographic Project, Spencer Wells gives a short video summary of each haplogroup. (This might only be visible to those who have actually joined the project--e.g., by paying $15 to transfer DNA information from FTDNA to the project.)

    Wells considers it "possible" that the Celts were haplogroup I and spread it throughout central and western Europe. Surely he can't be referring to I1b, which is mostly Slavic, nor I1a, which is mostly Scandinavian. Perhaps he is referring only to I1c?

  • #2
    Originally posted by lgmayka
    On the Genographic Project, Spencer Wells gives a short video summary of each haplogroup. (This might only be visible to those who have actually joined the project--e.g., by paying $15 to transfer DNA information from FTDNA to the project.)

    Wells considers it "possible" that the Celts were haplogroup I and spread it throughout central and western Europe. Surely he can't be referring to I1b, which is mostly Slavic, nor I1a, which is mostly Scandinavian. Perhaps he is referring only to I1c?
    The site's Atlas of the Human Journey used to say that about Y-Haplogroup I but no longer does. Now it says something equally silly about the Vikings, as if such groups from relatively recent recorded history were genetically homogeneous.

    I chalk such things up to marketing. What better way to get someone to purchase a kit than to make him think he might find out his ancestors were Vikings?

    There is not enough I in the formerly Celtic regions of Europe to make the Celts primarily members of that y-haplogroup.

    Some have said the Celts were all R1b, but I don't buy that either. Many R1bs were Celts, many others were not. Some or many Is were Celts, many more probably were not.

    Celt is an ethno-linguistic term, not a genetic one.

    The attempts to make all Slavs R1a and all Teutons I1a are equally misguided.
    Last edited by Stevo; 16 June 2006, 07:50 AM.

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    • #3
      Most surely the e-Keltoi journal hasn't escaped your attention. A good source of information on Celtic culture, particulary the Celtiberians.

      http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekelt...ol6/index.html

      Here's a quote from one of the essays that I find very revealing:
      Regardless of the relations and influences (whether these are close or remote) that can be traced as part of the study of the different aspects that make up a society, the Celtiberians never constituted an identifiable social, cultural, or political unit. Hence, the study of this group must be geared toward an analysis of the historical process that developed throughout an amalgamation of populations that inhabited a territory defined by Classical writers as "Celtiberia".
      Last edited by Victor; 16 June 2006, 08:37 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Victor
        Most surely the e-Keltoi journal hasn't escaped your attention. A good source of information on Celtic culture, particulary the Celtiberians.

        http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekelt...ol6/index.html

        Here's a quote from one of the essays that I find very revealing:
        Awesome site, Victor!

        I love it!

        Plenty of reading material.

        Are you trying to keep me too busy to post here?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Stevo
          Awesome site, Victor!

          I love it!

          Plenty of reading material.

          Are you trying to keep me too busy to post here?

          On the contrary! With your background you're better prepared to assimilate all this information and then share with us some of your insights.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Victor
            On the contrary! With your background you're better prepared to assimilate all this information and then share with us some of your insights.
            I've started reading some of the Celtiberian stuff. It looks pretty well researched and documented. I like the references to primary source material.

            I like the fact that the site is oriented toward history and archaeology.

            Some folks try to abandon those disciplines in favor of reading the genetic tea leaves.

            Can't be done.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Stevo
              <<<>>>

              I like the fact that the site is oriented toward history and archaeology.

              Some folks try to abandon those disciplines in favor of reading the genetic tea leaves.

              Can't be done.
              I fully agree! Those tea leaves can be intoxicating and produce wild hallucinations.

              If you recall, I made a reference to astrology and how there's the risk of approaching genetic genealogy in the same way. The parallel is this: astrology groups all humans in 12 zodiac signs; we just need to identify our sign. Genetic genealogy groups all humans in 18 haplogroups; .....

              You get the idea.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Stevo
                The site's Atlas of the Human Journey used to say that about Y-Haplogroup I but no longer does. Now it says something equally silly about the Vikings, as if such groups from relatively recent recorded history were genetically homogeneous.

                I chalk such things up to marketing. What better way to get someone to purchase a kit than to make him think he might find out his ancestors were Vikings?.
                The Norwegian Vikings had the following y-DNA haplogroups (in this exact order):

                R1b, I, R1a, and Q

                We know this for sure because these haplogroups are present on Iceland, which was colonized by Norwegian vikings more than 1000 years ago and have been more or less isolated since then. These haplogroups are also the dominant ones in Norway nowadays, but there are also a few other haplogroups that must have come to the country somewhere between today and the viking era. These new haplogroups in the country are:

                N, E3b, and J

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Native
                  The Norwegian Vikings had the following y-DNA haplogroups (in this exact order):

                  R1b, I, R1a, and Q

                  We know this for sure because these haplogroups are present on Iceland, which was colonized by Norwegian vikings more than 1000 years ago and have been more or less isolated since then.
                  I think considerable amount of Iceland settlers came from Ireland and the British Isles. Here's an article by Helgason et al. "Estimating Scandinavian and Gaelic Ancestry in the Male Settlers of Iceland":

                  http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...646148607Guest

                  "The data suggest that 20%–25% of Icelandic founding males had Gaelic ancestry, with the remainder having Norse ancestry."

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                  • #10
                    ^^ Keep in mind that both Shetland and the Orkneys have been Norwegian territory for most of the recorded history. The conclusion would still be same though, as shown by the Europe map in this file ( http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf ) The Viking haplogroups were R1b, I, R1a and Q, at least for the Norwegian vikings. It may change the order though, because there are more I and R1a than R1b in Norway, while R1b is very dominant on the British Isles. Maybe the order was more like: I, R1b, R1a, and Q.
                    Last edited by Native; 18 June 2006, 07:01 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Haplogroup Q is interesting, since it's the only one in Iceland that is originated from Asia. It's possible that the Vikings picked it up on their journeys to Bjarmaland:

                      http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....il/haplo_q.htm

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eki
                        Haplogroup Q is interesting, since it's the only one in Iceland that is originated from Asia. It's possible that the Vikings picked it up on their journeys to Bjarmaland:

                        http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....il/haplo_q.htm
                        I think that must have happened long before the viking era and the colonization of Iceland, because there doesn't seem to be any Saami/Finish haplogroup N on any of the maps I have found of Iceland. I guess it would also take many generations to accumulate enough Q-people to get such a percentage amongst the colonizers. This is of course a question DNA-analysis should be able to answer.

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                        • #13
                          I would also like to answer the hypothesis in this thread:

                          I do not believe celts only had haplogroup I. Maybe haplogroup I was the major haplogroup in celtic populations, but I have never understood exactly who the celts were and don't want to jump to any conclusions.

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                          • #14
                            I think it might be best if we left discussion of the Vikings to another thread.

                            This one was supposed to be about the Celts and the relationship of y-haplogroup I to them.

                            I am of the opinion that such historical European groups were not genetically homogeneous, that Celt is an ethno-linguistic term.

                            There may have been a preponderance of certain haplogroups in this or that people, but they were not simply one, single, monolithic thing.

                            The e-Keltoi site recommended by Victor has a wealth of information.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Native
                              I would also like to answer the hypothesis in this thread:

                              I do not believe celts only had haplogroup I. Maybe haplogroup I was the major haplogroup in celtic populations, but I have never understood exactly who the celts were and don't want to jump to any conclusions.
                              I don't think there is any evidence that y-haplogroup I was ever well-represented among the Celts or was the basis of the Celtic population.

                              The Celts were predominantly a western and central European group, although they did spread to the South and East.

                              As a consequence, it is likely the Celts reflected the genetic demographics of their homelands.

                              I think most of us have a tendency to want things to be simple. We want to be be able to say this haplogroup was this and that haplogroup was that.

                              But it's not that easy. No one was testing dna as a prerequisite to social and sexual intercourse in ancient times.

                              Certain groups form the bulk of the population in a given region, but not in anything like a "pure" or monolithic sense.

                              The Celts were a people of Northwestern and Central Europe. No doubt their genetic profiles reflected the gene pools of the regions in which they lived.

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