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Celts were haplogroup I?

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  • spruithean
    replied
    I took the test to find my relatives and the location of my families origin in Britain. I'm not looking for a parade. I agree with Deirwha.

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  • Deirwha
    replied
    Interesting supposition

    I don't think I am looking for a parade. I like the National Genographic Projects description- a journey. The question is not who am I, but along which route does the journey stretch. I am interested in cultural antecedents also, but there the analogy is to Joseph's multi colored robes. I am interested in teasing out the many threads that time wove together in the cultural robes I wear, often unconsciously. But I am not interested in choosing one moment in time along that journey or one thread I have teased out of the fabric and call them "me." Nor am I looking for others who have worn the same weave as they stopped for a time in their journey in the same place at the same time as did those who traveled before me, specifically. I think that the quest for this last embodies the danger inherent in what we do while the former embodies the possibilities.

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  • Zaru
    replied
    Originally posted by spruithean View Post
    I agree. But rather than Viking what about Nordic as in Northern European?
    But isn't this one of the main reasons for FAMILY TREE DNA? To figure out the anthropology of our ancestors? The cultural implications I believe are of a philosophical nature but rest assured many if not most of us are here to figure out which parade we can march in!

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  • spruithean
    replied
    Originally posted by Arch Yeomans View Post
    All this ridiculous talk of associating DNA with culture treads on very shaky ground. It cracks me up to read posts about Haplogroup I and Mr Nordvedt's beloved Viking DNA.

    *poof* you're a Viking! Here's your spear and and here's your longship, now go plunder and pillage. Ancestors could have very well been slaves for all we know.
    I agree. But rather than Viking what about Nordic as in Northern European?

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  • derinos
    replied
    The Aboriginal Europeans?

    Of course there was the Paviland Prince, 24000 ybp, in South Wales. He did not stage his own ceremonial burial, Mammoth skull included alone but his tribe did it.. Google "Paviland" for a nice tale!
    And, romantically,......


    "A Name for the First People.

    The recent DNA evidence for Connaught/Welsh/Basque ancient family relationships was very illuminating. The time of that first post-glacial ethnic link, over 10,000 years ago, in the Paleolithic-Neolithic transitional cultural period; was well before the Celtic migrations, but those smallboned but potent ancient people are always being lumped in as "Celtic" ..
    For a long time I have looked for a name for these people. They deserve one. They brought fire and farming, trod out the long Green Roads, and built Stonehenge, Newgrange, Carnac, and so many intricate and imposing megalithic structures. The clearest picture of their everyday identity was recently carried to us by Otzi, the 5000 year old Tyrolean glacier corpse, mugged and frozen, going home from trading bows.
    Calling them "Neolithic" is like calling our own kind " Automotive" ! Hardly enough to describe our libraries and orchestras, art and architecture. For the first people, to be lumped in with those tall blond, bronze-bladed, hero-charioteer Celts, speaking their poetic Sanscrit language, crowds out those smallboned, socially cohesive, brilliantly astronomic, civil engineers .
    They must have had a language , too, also begging a name. Hard to place THAT, now that its traces, if any are left, melded into Gaelic and Welsh and Breton, Basque and Portuguese, maybe Tyrolean too..
    But wait. Take the words for water. The Gaelic "uisce" is older than the Sanscrit derivatives like Welsh "ydwr", Greek "hyder", Low-Germanic "watter". So I think "uisce" must be a word from the Paleolithics. It hangs on as a placename on rivers all over the pre-Saxon landscape of the British Isles, and as an alternative "wysg" in Welsh also. There must be a few other word-fossils like that. What about "tir" or "tyr", the word for land?
    And what did they call themselves? Is there a survivng word that would fit? What can we call these first people after the last Ice Age?
    Irish folklore names the three arrivals that make up the root-races of Irish people- the Tuath De Danaan, the Fomor, and the Fir-Bolg. The Fir-Bolg are likely the last Celts to arrive. In Britain the Romans listed them as Belgae, a near enough name.
    The Fomor could well be the "cowboys" who drove their herds and ox-wagons from Iran, (not quite the name Eirann, but so close) over about two thousand years, mutated to be able to live on milk products.
    That leaves the Danaans.
    I like that noble, magical name for our great and pathfinding First People we call the Paleolithics, sacramentally planting and joyfully harvesting; or sitting storytelling in their smoky winter bothies. In their season great silent stones spoke clear to them , and millenia later, hint the mystery to us.


    Stonehenge- The Danaans.

    A noble magic name ! No less will do
    For those that first began to plant and reap
    And build them giant rings of stone to wed
    The Mother of the earth to tribe and hearth.
    First Farmers, little folk, the buried bones tell now,
    With thoughts that spanned the circle of the sun.
    Setting in grace huge stones that mark his run,
    Gateways that only giants could have moved,
    Stones that sang clear to them of seasons' flow.
    Millenian messengers that mystify today.
    They must have had a language, one that sang
    Of what their lives were made of, and which sprang
    From reassuring springtime and the round
    Of growth and harvest, and the winter tales
    Of the long past when ice reigned king ,
    In the great Circles, praising earth and sun,
    And the Great Mother that makes all things One. "
    Last edited by derinos; 9 January 2009, 06:09 PM.

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    IE = language group

    Indo-Europeans refers to the language group, and entered western Europe around 5,000 years ago or so. The "aboriginal" Europeans had been there since repopulating the region north of the Alps after the LGM, and spoke various non-IE languages (now extinct). The main academic arguments seem to concern whether or not Neolithic agriculture arrived with the Indo-Europeans or arrived earlier. But don't ask me for sources, since I don't keep track.

    R1a1a & U5b2

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  • rainbow
    replied
    Originally posted by T E Peterman
    Aboriginal Europeans??
    Europeans that were in Europe before the Indo-Europeans arrived.
    Neanderthals?

    Maybe he meant the Sami.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_pe...es_on_the_Sami

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    Aboriginal Europeans??

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    the term Celtic, etc.

    To me, any term referring to an Indo-European subgroup, such as Celtic, Germanic, Italic, et al., is relatively modern. The Indo-Europeans didn't arrive in western Europe until around 5,000 years ago or so. And they found that Europe was already populated by indigenous peoples. So the problem is - what to name those earlier peoples, since that is who we really are, in many or most cases regarding us (former)Europeans.

    R1a1 & U5b2

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  • rainbow
    replied
    I think the term Celtic is being used to simply represent the genes of the British Isles area. There is the culture of Celtic and then there are the genes of Celtic. Sometimes they are one and the same, sometimes they are not. Just as with Jewish. Some are genetically Jewish, but not culturally, some are culturally Jewish, but not genetically, and some are both.

    I doubt that the La Tene culture in Switzerland was from actual genetic Celts, maybe a little bit, but not predominantly.
    I think it was just a fashion in the area, and it was a manufacturing area. Just as you can find French-style lamps made in modern day China.

    I think the Celts were R1b.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R1...stribution.jpg
    And there are many, many people who are genetically descended from the Celts and who are mainly Celtic but don't consider themselves Celtic.
    Last edited by rainbow; 5 January 2009, 06:24 PM.

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  • Deirwha
    replied
    Exactly

    I have not been at this as long as some, but the message is clear to me. If one is asking what culture was my ancestor, one is asking the wrong question. The question is, what journey did the very long line of my ancestors take. In that sense, I have been a Cornishman, an Englishmen, a Dutchman, a Dane, a German, a Romanian, an Iranian, an Egyptian, an Ethiopian, and a Bushman.

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  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
    Yeah, I found quite a few contradictory statements in the Genographic Project and chalked it up as misinformation or typos from the admin asst. Somewhere I read on NG Genographic Site the Gravettian culture was the forerunner of the Celts along with a bunch of other bologna. Hmmmm. we're talking literally several thousands of years before the "Celtic" culture arrived.
    All this ridiculous talk of associating DNA with culture treads on very shaky ground. It cracks me up to read posts about Haplogroup I and Mr Nordvedt's beloved Viking DNA.

    *poof* you're a Viking! Here's your spear and and here's your longship, now go plunder and pillage. Ancestors could have very well been slaves for all we know.
    The great thing is..If you go back far enough we are related to them all

    If a forefather turns out to be a slave..look back a little further. You might find a King.

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  • Deirwha
    replied
    I like that quote

    I should use it. I can't get me to agree with myself over what happened in the past 60 years of my own little evolution. Thanks. I will look this up. I am interested in learning something new every day.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by Deirwha
    Will do. Is it out in book form or to be found on the net.

    amazon and bn should have it
    look today you cant get people to agree what happened in ireland 60 yrs ago
    let alone 2000-10000

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  • Deirwha
    replied
    Thanks

    Will do. Is it out in book form or to be found on the net.

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