Celts were haplogroup I?

[Nagelfar]

I am only 37 years old. So, not having been there in person, I can't authoritatively confirm nor deny.

Jack

I'd say everyone who *was* there in person, had no clue either. ;-)

[Jim Denning]

Re Clochaire's interesting post:

As a J2 with my paternal line roots in Ireland, I would like to think that the "traditional account" of the origin of the Gaels accounts for my having a haplogroup of middle eastern origin.

But since the overwhelming majority of Irish folks are R1b, and only a miniscule fraction have been found to be J, G, E, etc., it would seem that the science simply does not support the traditional account.

Correct?

MELICIANS jews following a teacher decended from geale
geale was in desert with moses got snake bit got healed by the bronze serpent. moses gave hime a personal prophecy thet god prepared a land free of snakes
after sweeping from spain to balkins theyheard ireland was snake free.
sent emerees to the thuathada danaan in ireland. they were killed
so they took ireland fron the tribe of dan [translated title].

that puts hebrew ydna in ireland plus later the keltoi sweept europe and britainny isles and more hebrew ydna
thats why so many askenazi matches

[Deirwha]

Irish and Ashkenazi matches

Honestly, I don't know whether to be inspired or terrified by this conversation. I too participate in similar conversations off line (albeit not with the certainty or cultural/historical references/assertions I see here).So I don't exactly want to dump a gallon of cold water on this conversation.

However, I think it is incumbent on those of us who inquire to remember the history through which the ethnicity, Jew, has suffered, as well as the impacts of convergent evolution and the adoption of fatherless children into a generous culture. I am of a double mine about the inquiries even as I participate in them. And I do, for I have for a time suspected my father's family may have lived generations among the hidden Jews of England, although there are certainly alternative explanations for my family's customs and my genetic haplogroup is close but not there. But I am conscious these inquiries revive dark historical memories imprinted over a 1000 years of horror. It is not just the Nazi's. Though singularly efficient, they were not even the inventors of the infamous yellow star.

It all began promisingly enough in Europe with the religious tolerance of the early middle ages Kingdoms of Navarre and Catalan. Along with Galicia, Navarre's neighbor in northern Spain, Spain and in particular Northern Spain at one time is estimated to have held a half million Jews. Incidentally, Galicia is the suggested launching point for the Gaels on their journey to Ireland.

During that long stretch of history, 711 AD to 900 AD among Europe's greatest centers of learning were Jewish Centers in these kingdoms. Many of the sons of Europe's elite attended and converted to Judaism. There had been a Jewish presence in Spain at least since the Roman Empire and canon and near canon literature suggested Judea founded a trading center with Tyre in a legendary place called Tarshish some where in Hispania along the coast. The Jews of Spain enjoyed relative favor among the Basque rulers and were close down to the conflict with the Moors when some Jewish men sided with the Moors. The Goths did not feel the same. Eventually their policies toward the Jews won out.

Then the terror began. Ethnically Jewish people were sent away from what may have been their homeland by that time for nearly 2,000 years. Non ethnically Jewish converts (don't ask me how they knew the difference) were given a different choice- reconvert or burn. This period saw the introduction of the yellow star in Spain.

Many of these "convert" Jews and some whose family lines may well have originated in Judea did not accept the alternatives. They pretended to convert to Catholicism but instead practiced Judaism at home, at considerable personal risk. This practice spread throughout France and England also. In England they came as the invitees of William the Conqueror who valued their service doing financial management that was forbidden gentiles. After King Stephen had a blow out with a local person things got tough in Britain too for a couple generations, after which kind of a don't ask, don't tell policy developed ... except of course when the Inquisition was in town.

This is a dark and painful history that gave thousands of Europeans a set of grim choices that challenged their faiths, their ethics, their identities. A whole secret world developed, the world of Crypto Judaism that still exists in parts of the world.

In light of this history, which is conventional, verified, and not in the least "edge of the envelope" or "unconventional," the conversation here triggers ambivalence as do my own inquiries into these sensitive areas. I thought I would mention it because how else would you all know.

[ylgitn]

MELICIANS jews following a teacher decended from geale
geale was in desert with moses got snake bit got healed by the bronze serpent. moses gave hime a personal prophecy thet god prepared a land free of snakes
after sweeping from spain to balkins theyheard ireland was snake free.
sent emerees to the thuathada danaan in ireland. they were killed
so they took ireland fron the tribe of dan [translated title].

that puts hebrew ydna in ireland plus later the keltoi sweept europe and britainny isles and more hebrew ydna
thats why so many askenazi matches

For the record, I have no Askenazi matches or near-matches, or any matches or near-matches with anyone else.

Maybe I am the last of the Fomorians (except that I think they were giants and had a palace under the sea, and I'm only 6'1" and can barely do the backstroke).

[Deirwha]

not anti Celtic

not anti anything or anyone on this forum.

Just:

1) a novice at genealogical genetics, but:

2) with a strong background in biblical history, and

3) separately, evidence.

4) Pro care and validation in the rapidly developing technology of genealogical genetics; and

5) Pro learning the story as it is not as I fantasize, prepared to leave behind my family shibboleths in the evidence warrants. Those shibboleths include a celt identity, one of the strongest celt identities in the celt world- Cornish.

6) Pro frankness and direct communication that is nevertheless,

7) NOT HOSTILE.

8) Well aware of the quicksand of old guy obsessions inherent in genealogical/tribal research;

9) Well aware of the emotional triggers tribal identification can be;

10) Very aware of the consequences throughout history of this sort of emotional passion tied to tribe.

11) Extremely skeptical by professional and personal experience of claims of expertise and "I know the story."

So,
I wish you no harm nor animosity. How about we keep it that way. The flip side of who I am went by the nickname, Fang. I would rather Fang stayed in retirement.

[Jim Denning]

Honestly, I don't know whether to be inspired or terrified by this conversation. I too participate in similar conversations off line (albeit not with the certainty or cultural/historical references/assertions I see here).So I don't exactly want to dump a gallon of cold water on this conversation.

However, I think it is incumbent on those of us who inquire to remember the history through which the ethnicity, Jew, has suffered, as well as the impacts of convergent evolution and the adoption of fatherless children into a generous culture. I am of a double mine about the inquiries even as I participate in them. And I do, for I have for a time suspected my father's family may have lived generations among the hidden Jews of England, although there are certainly alternative explanations for my family's customs and my genetic haplogroup is close but not there. But I am conscious these inquiries revive dark historical memories imprinted over a 1000 years of horror. It is not just the Nazi's. Though singularly efficient, they were not even the inventors of the infamous yellow star.

It all began promisingly enough in Europe with the religious tolerance of the early middle ages Kingdoms of Navarre and Catalan. Along with Galicia, Navarre's neighbor in northern Spain, Spain and in particular Northern Spain at one time is estimated to have held a half million Jews. Incidentally, Galicia is the suggested launching point for the Gaels on their journey to Ireland.

During that long stretch of history, 711 AD to 900 AD among Europe's greatest centers of learning were Jewish Centers in these kingdoms. Many of the sons of Europe's elite attended and converted to Judaism. There had been a Jewish presence in Spain at least since the Roman Empire and canon and near canon literature suggested Judea founded a trading center with Tyre in a legendary place called Tarshish some where in Hispania along the coast. The Jews of Spain enjoyed relative favor among the Basque rulers and were close down to the conflict with the Moors when some Jewish men sided with the Moors. The Goths did not feel the same. Eventually their policies toward the Jews won out.

Then the terror began. Ethnically Jewish people were sent away from what may have been their homeland by that time for nearly 2,000 years. Non ethnically Jewish converts (don't ask me how they knew the difference) were given a different choice- reconvert or burn. This period saw the introduction of the yellow star in Spain.

Many of these "convert" Jews and some whose family lines may well have originated in Judea did not accept the alternatives. They pretended to convert to Catholicism but instead practiced Judaism at home, at considerable personal risk. This practice spread throughout France and England also. In England they came as the invitees of William the Conqueror who valued their service doing financial management that was forbidden gentiles. After King Stephen had a blow out with a local person things got tough in Britain too for a couple generations, after which kind of a don't ask, don't tell policy developed ... except of course when the Inquisition was in town.

This is a dark and painful history that gave thousands of Europeans a set of grim choices that challenged their faiths, their ethics, their identities. A whole secret world developed, the world of Crypto Judaism that still exists in parts of the world.

In light of this history, which is conventional, verified, and not in the least "edge of the envelope" or "unconventional," the conversation here triggers ambivalence as do my own inquiries into these sensitive areas. I thought I would mention it because how else would you all know.

READ THE STORY OF THE IRISH RCE BY MCMANUS

[Deirwha]

Thanks

Will do. Is it out in book form or to be found on the net.

[Jim Denning]

Will do. Is it out in book form or to be found on the net.

amazon and bn should have it
look today you cant get people to agree what happened in ireland 60 yrs ago
let alone 2000-10000

[Deirwha]

I like that quote

I should use it. I can't get me to agree with myself over what happened in the past 60 years of my own little evolution. Thanks. I will look this up. I am interested in learning something new every day.

[M.O'Connor]

Yeah, I found quite a few contradictory statements in the Genographic Project and chalked it up as misinformation or typos from the admin asst. Somewhere I read on NG Genographic Site the Gravettian culture was the forerunner of the Celts along with a bunch of other bologna. Hmmmm. we're talking literally several thousands of years before the "Celtic" culture arrived.
All this ridiculous talk of associating DNA with culture treads on very shaky ground. It cracks me up to read posts about Haplogroup I and Mr Nordvedt's beloved Viking DNA.

*poof* you're a Viking! Here's your spear and and here's your longship, now go plunder and pillage. Ancestors could have very well been slaves for all we know.

The great thing is..If you go back far enough we are related to them all

If a forefather turns out to be a slave..look back a little further. You might find a King.

[Deirwha]

Exactly

I have not been at this as long as some, but the message is clear to me. If one is asking what culture was my ancestor, one is asking the wrong question. The question is, what journey did the very long line of my ancestors take. In that sense, I have been a Cornishman, an Englishmen, a Dutchman, a Dane, a German, a Romanian, an Iranian, an Egyptian, an Ethiopian, and a Bushman.

[rainbow]

I think the term Celtic is being used to simply represent the genes of the British Isles area. There is the culture of Celtic and then there are the genes of Celtic. Sometimes they are one and the same, sometimes they are not. Just as with Jewish. Some are genetically Jewish, but not culturally, some are culturally Jewish, but not genetically, and some are both.

I doubt that the La Tene culture in Switzerland was from actual genetic Celts, maybe a little bit, but not predominantly.
I think it was just a fashion in the area, and it was a manufacturing area. Just as you can find French-style lamps made in modern day China.

I think the Celts were R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R1b-DNA-Distribution.jpg

And there are many, many people who are genetically descended from the Celts and who are mainly Celtic but don't consider themselves Celtic.

[PDHOTLEN]

the term Celtic, etc.

To me, any term referring to an Indo-European subgroup, such as Celtic, Germanic, Italic, et al., is relatively modern. The Indo-Europeans didn't arrive in western Europe until around 5,000 years ago or so. And they found that Europe was already populated by indigenous peoples. So the problem is - what to name those earlier peoples, since that is who we really are, in many or most cases regarding us (former)Europeans.

R1a1 & U5b2

[T E Peterman]

Aboriginal Europeans??

[rainbow]

Aboriginal Europeans??

Europeans that were in Europe before the Indo-Europeans arrived.
Neanderthals?

Maybe he meant the Sami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Genetics_and_the_history_of_genetic_studies_on_the_Sami