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Celts were haplogroup I?

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by Deirwha
    Honestly, I don't know whether to be inspired or terrified by this conversation. I too participate in similar conversations off line (albeit not with the certainty or cultural/historical references/assertions I see here).So I don't exactly want to dump a gallon of cold water on this conversation.

    However, I think it is incumbent on those of us who inquire to remember the history through which the ethnicity, Jew, has suffered, as well as the impacts of convergent evolution and the adoption of fatherless children into a generous culture. I am of a double mine about the inquiries even as I participate in them. And I do, for I have for a time suspected my father's family may have lived generations among the hidden Jews of England, although there are certainly alternative explanations for my family's customs and my genetic haplogroup is close but not there. But I am conscious these inquiries revive dark historical memories imprinted over a 1000 years of horror. It is not just the Nazi's. Though singularly efficient, they were not even the inventors of the infamous yellow star.

    It all began promisingly enough in Europe with the religious tolerance of the early middle ages Kingdoms of Navarre and Catalan. Along with Galicia, Navarre's neighbor in northern Spain, Spain and in particular Northern Spain at one time is estimated to have held a half million Jews. Incidentally, Galicia is the suggested launching point for the Gaels on their journey to Ireland.

    During that long stretch of history, 711 AD to 900 AD among Europe's greatest centers of learning were Jewish Centers in these kingdoms. Many of the sons of Europe's elite attended and converted to Judaism. There had been a Jewish presence in Spain at least since the Roman Empire and canon and near canon literature suggested Judea founded a trading center with Tyre in a legendary place called Tarshish some where in Hispania along the coast. The Jews of Spain enjoyed relative favor among the Basque rulers and were close down to the conflict with the Moors when some Jewish men sided with the Moors. The Goths did not feel the same. Eventually their policies toward the Jews won out.

    Then the terror began. Ethnically Jewish people were sent away from what may have been their homeland by that time for nearly 2,000 years. Non ethnically Jewish converts (don't ask me how they knew the difference) were given a different choice- reconvert or burn. This period saw the introduction of the yellow star in Spain.

    Many of these "convert" Jews and some whose family lines may well have originated in Judea did not accept the alternatives. They pretended to convert to Catholicism but instead practiced Judaism at home, at considerable personal risk. This practice spread throughout France and England also. In England they came as the invitees of William the Conqueror who valued their service doing financial management that was forbidden gentiles. After King Stephen had a blow out with a local person things got tough in Britain too for a couple generations, after which kind of a don't ask, don't tell policy developed ... except of course when the Inquisition was in town.

    This is a dark and painful history that gave thousands of Europeans a set of grim choices that challenged their faiths, their ethics, their identities. A whole secret world developed, the world of Crypto Judaism that still exists in parts of the world.

    In light of this history, which is conventional, verified, and not in the least "edge of the envelope" or "unconventional," the conversation here triggers ambivalence as do my own inquiries into these sensitive areas. I thought I would mention it because how else would you all know.

    READ THE STORY OF THE IRISH RCE BY MCMANUS

    Leave a comment:


  • Deirwha
    replied
    not anti Celtic

    not anti anything or anyone on this forum.

    Just:

    1) a novice at genealogical genetics, but:

    2) with a strong background in biblical history, and

    3) separately, evidence.

    4) Pro care and validation in the rapidly developing technology of genealogical genetics; and

    5) Pro learning the story as it is not as I fantasize, prepared to leave behind my family shibboleths in the evidence warrants. Those shibboleths include a celt identity, one of the strongest celt identities in the celt world- Cornish.

    6) Pro frankness and direct communication that is nevertheless,

    7) NOT HOSTILE.

    8) Well aware of the quicksand of old guy obsessions inherent in genealogical/tribal research;

    9) Well aware of the emotional triggers tribal identification can be;

    10) Very aware of the consequences throughout history of this sort of emotional passion tied to tribe.

    11) Extremely skeptical by professional and personal experience of claims of expertise and "I know the story."

    So,
    I wish you no harm nor animosity. How about we keep it that way. The flip side of who I am went by the nickname, Fang. I would rather Fang stayed in retirement.

    Leave a comment:


  • ylgitn
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    MELICIANS jews following a teacher decended from geale
    geale was in desert with moses got snake bit got healed by the bronze serpent. moses gave hime a personal prophecy thet god prepared a land free of snakes
    after sweeping from spain to balkins theyheard ireland was snake free.
    sent emerees to the thuathada danaan in ireland. they were killed
    so they took ireland fron the tribe of dan [translated title].

    that puts hebrew ydna in ireland plus later the keltoi sweept europe and britainny isles and more hebrew ydna
    thats why so many askenazi matches
    For the record, I have no Askenazi matches or near-matches, or any matches or near-matches with anyone else.

    Maybe I am the last of the Fomorians (except that I think they were giants and had a palace under the sea, and I'm only 6'1" and can barely do the backstroke).

    Leave a comment:


  • Deirwha
    replied
    Irish and Ashkenazi matches

    Honestly, I don't know whether to be inspired or terrified by this conversation. I too participate in similar conversations off line (albeit not with the certainty or cultural/historical references/assertions I see here).So I don't exactly want to dump a gallon of cold water on this conversation.

    However, I think it is incumbent on those of us who inquire to remember the history through which the ethnicity, Jew, has suffered, as well as the impacts of convergent evolution and the adoption of fatherless children into a generous culture. I am of a double mine about the inquiries even as I participate in them. And I do, for I have for a time suspected my father's family may have lived generations among the hidden Jews of England, although there are certainly alternative explanations for my family's customs and my genetic haplogroup is close but not there. But I am conscious these inquiries revive dark historical memories imprinted over a 1000 years of horror. It is not just the Nazi's. Though singularly efficient, they were not even the inventors of the infamous yellow star.

    It all began promisingly enough in Europe with the religious tolerance of the early middle ages Kingdoms of Navarre and Catalan. Along with Galicia, Navarre's neighbor in northern Spain, Spain and in particular Northern Spain at one time is estimated to have held a half million Jews. Incidentally, Galicia is the suggested launching point for the Gaels on their journey to Ireland.

    During that long stretch of history, 711 AD to 900 AD among Europe's greatest centers of learning were Jewish Centers in these kingdoms. Many of the sons of Europe's elite attended and converted to Judaism. There had been a Jewish presence in Spain at least since the Roman Empire and canon and near canon literature suggested Judea founded a trading center with Tyre in a legendary place called Tarshish some where in Hispania along the coast. The Jews of Spain enjoyed relative favor among the Basque rulers and were close down to the conflict with the Moors when some Jewish men sided with the Moors. The Goths did not feel the same. Eventually their policies toward the Jews won out.

    Then the terror began. Ethnically Jewish people were sent away from what may have been their homeland by that time for nearly 2,000 years. Non ethnically Jewish converts (don't ask me how they knew the difference) were given a different choice- reconvert or burn. This period saw the introduction of the yellow star in Spain.

    Many of these "convert" Jews and some whose family lines may well have originated in Judea did not accept the alternatives. They pretended to convert to Catholicism but instead practiced Judaism at home, at considerable personal risk. This practice spread throughout France and England also. In England they came as the invitees of William the Conqueror who valued their service doing financial management that was forbidden gentiles. After King Stephen had a blow out with a local person things got tough in Britain too for a couple generations, after which kind of a don't ask, don't tell policy developed ... except of course when the Inquisition was in town.

    This is a dark and painful history that gave thousands of Europeans a set of grim choices that challenged their faiths, their ethics, their identities. A whole secret world developed, the world of Crypto Judaism that still exists in parts of the world.

    In light of this history, which is conventional, verified, and not in the least "edge of the envelope" or "unconventional," the conversation here triggers ambivalence as do my own inquiries into these sensitive areas. I thought I would mention it because how else would you all know.
    Last edited by Deirwha; 14 August 2008, 09:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by ylgitn
    Re Clochaire's interesting post:

    As a J2 with my paternal line roots in Ireland, I would like to think that the "traditional account" of the origin of the Gaels accounts for my having a haplogroup of middle eastern origin.

    But since the overwhelming majority of Irish folks are R1b, and only a miniscule fraction have been found to be J, G, E, etc., it would seem that the science simply does not support the traditional account.

    Correct?
    MELICIANS jews following a teacher decended from geale
    geale was in desert with moses got snake bit got healed by the bronze serpent. moses gave hime a personal prophecy thet god prepared a land free of snakes
    after sweeping from spain to balkins theyheard ireland was snake free.
    sent emerees to the thuathada danaan in ireland. they were killed
    so they took ireland fron the tribe of dan [translated title].

    that puts hebrew ydna in ireland plus later the keltoi sweept europe and britainny isles and more hebrew ydna
    thats why so many askenazi matches

    Leave a comment:


  • Nagelfar
    replied
    Originally posted by Clochaire
    I am only 37 years old. So, not having been there in person, I can't authoritatively confirm nor deny.

    Jack
    I'd say everyone who *was* there in person, had no clue either. ;-)

    Leave a comment:


  • Clochaire
    replied
    Originally posted by ylgitn
    Re Clochaire's interesting post:

    As a J2 with my paternal line roots in Ireland . . . a haplogroup of middle eastern origin.
    Well, without regard to any of the numerous and better historically documented migrations to Ireland, what about the Formorians?

    Weren't the Formorians, who had their stronghold on Tory Island off N.W. Donegal supposed to be a mediterranean people?

    Lugh Lamhfhada was the Apollo, you might say, of Irish mythology. His mother was supposed to be the daughter of the Fomorian king, Balor.

    Jack

    Leave a comment:


  • Clochaire
    replied
    Originally posted by Oriel
    The majority of Irish people tested to date are R1b1c which is M269.Ireland would be considered to be last stronghold of the Celts.So if you are downstream of the SNP M269 then you are descended from the Celts.There is a lot of talk of the German tribes but doesn't anyone out there know that the celts originated in Germany.The Belgae were a group of Celtic tribes from Germany and Belgium is said to have taken its name from Belgae.If one looks in the Oxford dictionary the meaning for "celt" = indo German tribe.

    Slan Oriel
    I guess that's true. And if Fir Bolg really does mean descendant of the Belgae, and Belgium is, at least today, a stronghold of R1b1b2g, then I guess I'd expect descendants of Fir Bolg in Ireland also to be R1b1b2g.

    Slan

    Jack

    Leave a comment:


  • Deirwha
    replied
    thank you

    oh, and to get 10 characters:

    Thank you for tying of that little dangling thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oriel
    Guest replied
    The Celts

    The majority of Irish people tested to date are R1b1c which is M269.Ireland would be considered to be last stronghold of the Celts.So if you are downstream of the SNP M269 then you are descended from the Celts.There is a lot of talk of the German tribes but doesn't anyone out there know that the celts originated in Germany.The Belgae were a group of Celtic tribes from Germany and Belgium is said to have taken its name from Belgae.If one looks in the Oxford dictionary the meaning for "celt" = indo German tribe.

    Slan Oriel

    Leave a comment:


  • Clochaire
    replied
    Originally posted by ylgitn
    Re Clochaire's interesting post:

    As a J2 with my paternal line roots in Ireland, I would like to think that the "traditional account" of the origin of the Gaels accounts for my having a haplogroup of middle eastern origin.

    But since the overwhelming majority of Irish folks are R1b, and only a miniscule fraction have been found to be J, G, E, etc., it would seem that the science simply does not support the traditional account.

    Correct?
    I am only 37 years old. So, not having been there in person, I can't authoritatively confirm nor deny.

    Jack

    Leave a comment:


  • ylgitn
    replied
    Re Clochaire's interesting post:

    As a J2 with my paternal line roots in Ireland, I would like to think that the "traditional account" of the origin of the Gaels accounts for my having a haplogroup of middle eastern origin.

    But since the overwhelming majority of Irish folks are R1b, and only a miniscule fraction have been found to be J, G, E, etc., it would seem that the science simply does not support the traditional account.

    Correct?
    Last edited by ylgitn; 14 August 2008, 10:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Clochaire
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    they were hebrew
    like jews being jewish is from the mother being jewish
    think of the movie 10 commandments moses adopted princess momhad black slaves both the princess and black slaves were assimilated probably to moses levi tribe
    ftdna was started to prove ethiopians were leite and they did

    the hebrew tribes crossed caucasus mts where akenaskis live today
    i am e1b1ba2. 50% + of my matches are askenazis. i am 6000 yrs older as that then the next closest e3b COX.

    AND I AM IRISH lol if my pic is still there i am very red beard blond moustached strawberry blonde haired black hair chested Irish fron longford /cavan

    and i am not roman

    it was the greeks that called them keltoi from the name the assyrians khumri
    derived from ohmri
    1. This sounds like the traditional account of the origin of the Gaels--don't think I've heard similar story for Welsh, Breton, Galicians, etc.

    I think the story goes that a man called Gaeldas Glass (ie, ancestor of the Gaels) or the likes was a Hebrew contemporary of Moses. He married the daughter of an Egyptian Pharoh whose name was Scotia (hence Latin name for Gaels: Scot).

    Their descendants migrated to Spain. After some type of warfare in Spain, the great king Milesius and his sons migrated to Ireland. Hence the arcane but not-unheard-of epithet for the Irish people, the Milesians.

    The traditional genealogies say that each of Milesius' sons became the founder of all the major Gaelic noble houses--I am fuzzy on details, but I remember sons named Ith and Eremon.

    Anyhow, I think archaelogists and geneticists generally agree that there does seem to have been a major migration from Spain to Ireland. But I hadn't heard anyone address the accuracy of the story before that point.

    And although these ancient Gaels followed their genealogies quite carefully, I don't think they adopted any race laws quite so proscriptive as the Jewish Chalakah. From what I have read, Gaelic fixation with genealogy was driven by a legal structure that defined a person's rights by his or her role within his or her father's tribe. These people having been nomadic for so long, it appeared more sensible to them to define jurisdictions by blood ties than geographical residence.

    2. As for the greece, thrace thing, Celtic raids on that part of the classical world are well known. Some Celts had a stable kingdom as far east as the location of modern day Turkey.

    This also relates to Ireland, because of the legendary origin of some of the inhabitants arrived BEFORE the Milesians--even the legends say that Milesians were never more than a dominant minority, and that the Irish people have a genetically diverse history.

    Maybe you can fill in the details here, Jim, because my memory is fuzzy on this point. But I think the legend is that the Fir Bolg people, at the earliest known point in their story, escaped from slavery in Greece, and after a circuitous migration route, ended up in Ireland.

    I've seen some historians attribute a continental Celtic origin to some of these "pre-Milesian" people. For instance, they claim that the tribe name Fir Bolg refers to the Belgae of N. Gaul. Could be, but I don't think that is consistent with the current idea of R1b1b2h being predominant Y clade of La Tene people, and relative scarcity of the clade in modern Ireland.

    But who knows? As some smart people have pointed out on these threads, until more people have SNP tested, there's probably a severe limit on what we can say with certainty.

    Anyhow, Milwaukee's Irish Fest kicks off today, and I will lift my glass to all of you out there. Adh mor!

    Jack

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Denning
    replied
    keltoi =
    balkins to thrace. germany,swiss, scandanavians spanish portugeusse,french, scots,irish,brits, welsh basicly europe pre slav

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by Clochaire
    This makes sense--most serious historians consider Celtic identity to be primarily linguistic or cultural.

    But did you mean matriarchal rather than matricidal?

    To my knowledge, matriarchy among the Celts was limited to Picts--although prominence of goddess cults and several instances of celebrated individual Celtic women (e.g. Buodicca, Grainne Mhaol) suggests that Celts accorded a greater degree of equality
    than their Mediterrenean or Germanic counterparts.


    Jack
    they were hebrew
    like jews being jewish is from the mother being jewish
    think of the movie 10 commandments moses adopted princess momhad black slaves both the princess and black slaves were assimilated probably to moses levi tribe
    ftdna was started to prove ethiopians were leite and they did

    the hebrew tribes crossed caucasus mts where akenaskis live today
    i am e1b1ba2. 50% + of my matches are askenazis. i am 6000 yrs older as that then the next closest e3b COX.

    AND I AM IRISH lol if my pic is still there i am very red beard blond moustached strawberry blonde haired black hair chested Irish fron longford /cavan

    and i am not roman

    it was the greeks that called them keltoi from the name the assyrians khumri
    derived from ohmri

    Leave a comment:

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