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Celts were haplogroup I?

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  • #16
    There was a programme recently which looked at this very thing to try and determine if there is a specific group that would identify people as Celts and the conclusion was no.

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    • #17
      Saami I1a

      Originally posted by Native
      I think that must have happened long before the viking era and the colonization of Iceland, because there doesn't seem to be any Saami/Finish haplogroup N on any of the maps I have found of Iceland. I guess it would also take many generations to accumulate enough Q-people to get such a percentage amongst the colonizers. This is of course a question DNA-analysis should be able to answer.
      Rosser et al, 2000, Am J Hum Gen 67; 1526-1543, shows in Table 1 that Hg2 (Eu18-I) is found in 32% of Icelandic population and in 31% of the Saami population. I don't think thare are much Hg N among the Norwegian coast Saami population (Dupuy et al, 2006). I have read that Saami seamen were part of the expeditions of the so-called Viking. It is important to realize thet the Viking myths are of newer date. They were conciously used in the nation-building of the new nation Norway from 1814 (Constitution, separation from Denmark and joining Sweden) and from 1905 when we finally became independent.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by lgmayka
        On the Genographic Project, Spencer Wells gives a short video summary of each haplogroup. (This might only be visible to those who have actually joined the project--e.g., by paying $15 to transfer DNA information from FTDNA to the project.)

        Wells considers it "possible" that the Celts were haplogroup I and spread it throughout central and western Europe. Surely he can't be referring to I1b, which is mostly Slavic, nor I1a, which is mostly Scandinavian. Perhaps he is referring only to I1c?

        the keltoi were j2 e3b r1a r1b I G and others

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ravna
          Rosser et al, 2000, Am J Hum Gen 67; 1526-1543, shows in Table 1 that Hg2 (Eu18-I) is found in 32% of Icelandic population and in 31% of the Saami population. I don't think thare are much Hg N among the Norwegian coast Saami population (Dupuy et al, 2006). I have read that Saami seamen were part of the expeditions of the so-called Viking. It is important to realize thet the Viking myths are of newer date. They were conciously used in the nation-building of the new nation Norway from 1814 (Constitution, separation from Denmark and joining Sweden) and from 1905 when we finally became independent.
          Saami populations have approximately 40% N. The current percentage for Norwegians is less than 5%, and is most likely due to immigration after the viking era. The maps I have seen have not identified any N on Iceland at all. The viking history, and the settlement of Iceland, is well document in written history. The highest quality written sources are the Icelandic sagas from ca. 1100-1200 A.D. Genetic data confirm the written history. Haplogroup I1a were one of the major haplogroups found amongst both Norwegian and Swedish vikings, and doesn't prove Saami ancestry at all.

          The only myth we are dealing with here is about "sea Saami" and "Saami seamen". Not a single town along the Norwegian coast have Saami majority. The viking sagas, which are incredibly detailed as to names and background of crews, never mentioned Saami vikings as far as I know. Karasjok and Kautokeino, the only two towns in the interior in Northern Norway, are also the only Saami towns. The oldest remains of people found in Northern Norway is the Komsa-civilization (10 000 BC - 2000 BC), known for their exceptionally big teeth. Saami people generally have very small teeth. These remains should be tested for genetic data.

          I fully understand why Saami extremists spend so much time on establishing the false myth of sea Saamis instead of on preserving the traditional Saami ways of living, since the coastal areas have lots of valuable natural resources like oil, gas, fish and whales. Many Saami people are very talented, get a good education, and move to Oslo where they make lots of money and become very successful. This makes the Saami extremist desperate, and that is one reason why they come up with extreme ideas like that Sea Saamis dominated the coast all the way down to Trondheim, one of the cities that once were a viking capital.

          The Norwegian vikings had many different haplogroups like R1b, I, R1a and Q. Even small populations like the Saamis have several haplogroups. This makes it completely unlikely that the Celts only had one haplogroup.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Native
            The Norwegian vikings had many different haplogroups like R1b, I, R1a and Q. Even small populations like the Saamis have several haplogroups. This makes it completely unlikely that the Celts only had one haplogroup.
            Well said.

            Originally posted by Jim Denning
            the keltoi were j2 e3b r1a r1b I G and others
            No doubt true.

            No one was testing dna back then before admitting a man or woman to the tribe.

            Even today, most folks still fall in love and get married without the subject of dna testing ever coming up.

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            • #21
              The Sea Saami myths

              Hi Native,

              Your poor knowledge about Saami history is unbelievable, I guess we can blame the Norwegian politicians for that, normally as I remember the Saami history was always at one page in the last page in the primary school history books together with a picture of a Saami beside a reindeer, the rest of Saami history you learn at the local pub.

              You mention the myth seasaami, here I have some seasaami myths from your wonderful icelandic sagas, this is from Heimskringla The Sons Of Harald the seasaami made two warships for the Viking Sigurd that sailed much faster than the other Vikings warships using sea saami high-technology using skinn.

              "It is said that Sigurd made the Laplanders construct two boats for him during the winter up in the fjord; and they were fastened together with deer sinews, without nails, and with twigs of willow instead of knees, and each boat could carry twelve men. Sigurd was with the Laplanders while they were making the boats; and the Laplanders had good ale, with which they entertained Sigurd. Sigurd made these lines on it: --

              "In the Lapland tent
              Brave days we spent.
              Under the grey birch tree;
              In bed or on bank
              We knew no rank,
              And a merry crew were we.

              "Good ale went round
              As we sat on the ground,
              Under the grey birch tree;
              And up with the smoke
              Flew laugh and joke,
              And a merry crew were we."

              These boats were so light that no ship could overtake them in the water, according to what was sung at the time: --

              "Our skin-sewed Fin-boats lightly swim,
              Over the sea like wind they skim.
              Our ships are built without a nail;
              Few ships like ours can row or sail."

              In spring Sigurd and Magnus went south along the coast with the two boats which the Laplanders had made; and when they came to Vagar they killed Svein the priest and his two sons.

              Source: http://lind.no/nor/splitt.asp?lang=g..._haraldssonene

              Noaide

              Originally posted by Native
              Saami populations have approximately 40% N. The current percentage for Norwegians is less than 5%, and is most likely due to immigration after the viking era. The maps I have seen have not identified any N on Iceland at all. The viking history, and the settlement of Iceland, is well document in written history. The highest quality written sources are the Icelandic sagas from ca. 1100-1200 A.D. Genetic data confirm the written history. Haplogroup I1a were one of the major haplogroups found amongst both Norwegian and Swedish vikings, and doesn't prove Saami ancestry at all.

              The only myth we are dealing with here is about "sea Saami" and "Saami seamen". Not a single town along the Norwegian coast have Saami majority. The viking sagas, which are incredibly detailed as to names and background of crews, never mentioned Saami vikings as far as I know. Karasjok and Kautokeino, the only two towns in the interior in Northern Norway, are also the only Saami towns. The oldest remains of people found in Northern Norway is the Komsa-civilization (10 000 BC - 2000 BC), known for their exceptionally big teeth. Saami people generally have very small teeth. These remains should be tested for genetic data.

              I fully understand why Saami extremists spend so much time on establishing the false myth of sea Saamis instead of on preserving the traditional Saami ways of living, since the coastal areas have lots of valuable natural resources like oil, gas, fish and whales. Many Saami people are very talented, get a good education, and move to Oslo where they make lots of money and become very successful. This makes the Saami extremist desperate, and that is one reason why they come up with extreme ideas like that Sea Saamis dominated the coast all the way down to Trondheim, one of the cities that once were a viking capital.

              The Norwegian vikings had many different haplogroups like R1b, I, R1a and Q. Even small populations like the Saamis have several haplogroups. This makes it completely unlikely that the Celts only had one haplogroup.

              Comment


              • #22
                Maybe you all could carry on your somewhat politically-charged discussion of the Saami in some other thread.

                This one was supposed to be about Celts.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Stevo
                  The site's Atlas of the Human Journey used to say that about Y-Haplogroup I but no longer does. Now it says something equally silly about the Vikings, as if such groups from relatively recent recorded history were genetically homogeneous.

                  I chalk such things up to marketing. What better way to get someone to purchase a kit than to make him think he might find out his ancestors were Vikings?

                  There is not enough I in the formerly Celtic regions of Europe to make the Celts primarily members of that y-haplogroup.

                  Some have said the Celts were all R1b, but I don't buy that either. Many R1bs were Celts, many others were not. Some or many Is were Celts, many more probably were not.

                  Celt is an ethno-linguistic term, not a genetic one.

                  The attempts to make all Slavs R1a and all Teutons I1a are equally misguided.
                  Perhaps many Slavs are R1a, because of the Sarmatian and Scythian tribes that lived there prior to the Slavic existence. Or maybe, the Slavs are a Sarmatian tribe which would certainly be proven by the distribution of R1a in these areas.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Downer101
                    Perhaps many Slavs are R1a, because of the Sarmatian and Scythian tribes that lived there prior to the Slavic existence. Or maybe, the Slavs are a Sarmatian tribe which would certainly be proven by the distribution of R1a in these areas.
                    Scythians and Sarmatians are believed to have spoken Indo-Iranian languages only distantly related to the Slavonic languages.

                    While it is certainly possible that some of today's Slavs (particularly Russians) have Scythian and/or Sarmatian ancestry, the Slavs as an ethnic group did not derive from either of those groups.

                    There is some debate as to the original homeland of the Slavonic peoples, with the three chief candidates being Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine. One can't go too far wrong with any or all of the three, IMHO.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lgmayka
                      On the Genographic Project, Spencer Wells gives a short video summary of each haplogroup. (This might only be visible to those who have actually joined the project--e.g., by paying $15 to transfer DNA information from FTDNA to the project.)

                      Wells considers it "possible" that the Celts were haplogroup I and spread it throughout central and western Europe. Surely he can't be referring to I1b, which is mostly Slavic, nor I1a, which is mostly Scandinavian. Perhaps he is referring only to I1c?

                      NOT KNOWING HISTORY =S BAD RESULTS

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                      • #26
                        Genographic misinformation

                        Originally posted by lgmayka
                        On the Genographic Project, Spencer Wells gives a short video summary of each haplogroup. (This might only be visible to those who have actually joined the project--e.g., by paying $15 to transfer DNA information from FTDNA to the project.)

                        Wells considers it "possible" that the Celts were haplogroup I and spread it throughout central and western Europe. Surely he can't be referring to I1b, which is mostly Slavic, nor I1a, which is mostly Scandinavian. Perhaps he is referring only to I1c?
                        Yeah, I found quite a few contradictory statements in the Genographic Project and chalked it up as misinformation or typos from the admin asst. Somewhere I read on NG Genographic Site the Gravettian culture was the forerunner of the Celts along with a bunch of other bologna. Hmmmm. we're talking literally several thousands of years before the "Celtic" culture arrived.
                        All this ridiculous talk of associating DNA with culture treads on very shaky ground. It cracks me up to read posts about Haplogroup I and Mr Nordvedt's beloved Viking DNA.

                        *poof* you're a Viking! Here's your spear and and here's your longship, now go plunder and pillage. Ancestors could have very well been slaves for all we know.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          One of my favorite websites

                          Originally posted by Victor
                          Most surely the e-Keltoi journal hasn't escaped your attention. A good source of information on Celtic culture, particulary the Celtiberians.

                          http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekelt...ol6/index.html

                          Here's a quote from one of the essays that I find very revealing:
                          It's a very informative site. Hopefully they will draw interest to a region long neglected in the history books about the Celtic Culture. All focus seemed to be on Central Europe while nobody bothered to look at Iberia.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Victor
                            I fully agree! Those tea leaves can be intoxicating and produce wild hallucinations.

                            If you recall, I made a reference to astrology and how there's the risk of approaching genetic genealogy in the same way. The parallel is this: astrology groups all humans in 12 zodiac signs; we just need to identify our sign. Genetic genealogy groups all humans in 18 haplogroups; .....

                            You get the idea.
                            Uh, I dunno, I'm very much like my zodiac sign and I'm very much like my haplogroup.There is some truth to it....some.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lgmayka
                              On the Genographic Project, Spencer Wells gives a short video summary of each haplogroup. (This might only be visible to those who have actually joined the project--e.g., by paying $15 to transfer DNA information from FTDNA to the project.)

                              Wells considers it "possible" that the Celts were haplogroup I and spread it throughout central and western Europe. Surely he can't be referring to I1b, which is mostly Slavic, nor I1a, which is mostly Scandinavian. Perhaps he is referring only to I1c?
                              I paid $15 to transfer my DNA to Geno Project and I can see only my own haplogroup stuff-I've never seen any stories on the other Haplogroups.It's amazing, the irony in this world, how they keep the information all separate/secret,but mix the blood all up

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ireland Prob contain Y-I

                                Originally posted by lgmayka
                                On the Genographic Project, Spencer Wells gives a short video summary of each haplogroup. (This might only be visible to those who have actually joined the project--e.g., by paying $15 to transfer DNA information from FTDNA to the project.)

                                Wells considers it "possible" that the Celts were haplogroup I and spread it throughout central and western Europe. Surely he can't be referring to I1b, which is mostly Slavic, nor I1a, which is mostly Scandinavian. Perhaps he is referring only to I1c?
                                Celts contain Y-I ? I sort of believe it.Though Ireland has many haplogr just like most Euro nations have.

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