European Y-Haplogroup Numbers ???

[Stevo]

I am curious.

Has anyone seen any estimates of the numbers of men in Europe in the various y-haplogroups?

I've seen comments from people to the effect that 40% of European men are R1b, etc., but never any population estimates.

I am interested in numbers or at least percentages for all the European y-haplogroups.

Anyone know?

Any good links?

[Eki]

I am curious.

Has anyone seen any estimates of the numbers of men in Europe in the various y-haplogroups?

I've seen comments from people to the effect that 40% of European men are R1b, etc., but never any population estimates.

I am interested in numbers or at least percentages for all the European y-haplogroups.

Anyone know?

Any good links?

The CIA World Factbook gives you the population estimates for each country. OK, the CIA and fact might sound like an oxymoron, but guess they must get something right

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

Just get the percentages and do the math.

[Stevo]

The CIA World Factbook gives you the population estimates for each country. OK, the CIA and fact might sound like an oxymoron, but guess they must get something right

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

Just get the percentages and do the math.

Sounds like too much work!

Is there a source for the y-haplogroup percentages?

How about a simple estimate for Europe as a whole?

[M.O'Connor]

how about the pie-maps http://www.dnaheritage.com/ysnptree.asp

[Stevo]

I like these maps, too, but I was hoping to get an actual estimate of numbers or at least percentages.

[Native]

The question is not that easy to answer because people have different ideas about what Europe really is. The classic and historical definition is that Europe borders Asia at the Bosporus straight, the Ural mountains, and the watershed in the Caucasus mountains. By using this definition 5% of Turkey is in Europe, the majority of the Russian population, and Northern parts of Azerbaijan. This leaves plenty of room for interpretation between Ural and the Caspian sea. Parts of western Kazakhstan are certainly in Europe, but is the river Ural the correct border? Nowadays many people claim that Turkey, and not just the Western 5%, is European. Some even claim that Armenia is part of Europe, even though all of it is clearly south of Caucasus. Other continents are easier to separate.

[Victor]

Stevo,

The link below includes some percentage frequencies of selected populations:
(Check page 28)

http://www.ebc.ee/tymri00/PhD/2004/SRootsi_thesis.pdf

This has also some similar data but you have to convert from an older nomenclature system to the current one:
(Check page 3)

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Scozzari2001.pdf

And then there's this one:
(Check page 2)

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf

Just some materials to keep you busy. I haven't compared the numbers from one study to the other. But knowing about the nature of this field of study, I wouldn't be surprised to find differences, though.

Regards,

Victor

[Victor]

Here are a couple more links:

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Rosser2000.pdf

http://mcdb.colorado.edu/courses/4410/papers/sforza00.pdf

[Victor]

How to interpret different Y-DNA nomenclature systems

For anyone interested, you can easily translate from one Y-haplogroup nomenclature system to another using the Y Chromosome Consortium Tree:

http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenclature_system/fig1.html

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and read the descriptions.

[EBurgess]

European, or Americans of European origin

This might be a tangent, (forgive me if it is) but I have wondered of all the reported European Y-DNA, how many are actually living in Europe as opposed to Americans, Australians etc... Who trace their roots back to Europe.

With respect to Eki, F.E.C. and other "real europeans", do they represent significant numbers in the database?

So for example, in our DNA project their aren't that many participants from the British Isles they are in fact a very small minority of the 100 participants.

So I ask myself are the DNA samples we are seeing for our surname representative of their original Homeland? After all immigrants to the new world had opportunities to grow and expand that did not exist back home. We might have over-representation of a few haplotypes, versus a much more diverse representation that might be had back in Europe.

[lgmayka]

We might have over-representation of a few haplotypes, versus a much more diverse representation that might be had back in Europe.

Theoretically, yes. But the practical result can actually be exactly the opposite.

A researcher who tests Europeans in Europe is all too likely to test only the denizens of large cities. (After all, those are the places that are easiest to get to, easiest to 'set up shop', easiest to advertise for volunteers, etc.) Thus, his results may be filtered, skewed, or at least 'homogenized' by industrialization, wartime migration, etc.

On the other hand, Americans of European descent often came from impoverished rural areas. Their haplotypes may thus preserve interesting archaic patterns that will not show up in a typical research project conducted in a big European city.

The effect I describe is obvious in the case of Poles. A major study of Polish haplotypes concluded that all of Poland was homogeneous! That is, the study did not find any significant haplotype differences among the largest cities of each region. And yet, one need merely look at the I1b haplomap on Ysearch to see the very definite remnant pattern of White [North] Croatia (the region of southern Poland from which people traveled south to settle Croatia). The concentration of I1b is preserved in the rural emigrants who came to America, even though it does not show up in the large cities of Poland itself.

[Eki]

With respect to Eki, F.E.C. and other "real europeans", do they represent significant numbers in the database?

The FTDNA database is of course naturally skewed because in order for you to be in it you have to:

1) understand English language
2) have access to the internet
3) own a credit card

The first prerequisite skews the results towards English speaking countries. The second and third prerequisites skew the results towards countries with relatively high income level.

[EBurgess]

A major study of Polish haplotypes concluded that all of Poland was homogeneous! That is, the study did not find any significant haplotype differences among the largest cities

That is surprising to me. I always pictured big european cities as the trading hubs and therefore more heterogenous.

On the other hand, Americans of European descent often came from impoverished rural areas. Their haplotypes may thus preserve interesting archaic patterns

Good point and an interesting one to ponder!

In our surname project of about 100 participants, about one third are unique haplotypes. However there are about six major haplotypes that dominate the results. So I wonder would these proportions be the same back in England? My family is from a medium sized town deep in the heart of the midlands. To complicate matters my surname most likely had its origins in the towns rather than the countryside. Burgess=Bourgeois=Burger etc...

It would not surprise me to find a Y-Haplotype in the US that goes back 300 years in that country to have died out or be very minor in numbers back in England. The project only has one old family that matched in England.

However, given the current participation in Europe it is impossible to tell either way.

Eki: Good points all of them. Of the hurdles you mention, which do you think is the biggest? Cost?

[Eki]

Eki: Good points all of them. Of the hurdles you mention, which do you think is the biggest? Cost?

Probably language. People in the large western European countries like France, Italy, Spain and Germany don't often speak English that well although I'm sure most of them could afford the tests. Cost and language are probably both big hurdles in eastern European countries like Russia and Poland.

[F.E.C.]

On the other hand, Americans of European descent often came from impoverished rural areas. Their haplotypes may thus preserve interesting archaic patterns that will not show up in a typical research project conducted in a big European city.

Igmayka, what you say is true but, on the other hand, keep in mind that in some cases the sample may be not representative of the actual genetic make-up of the country of origin.

Let's take Italy for example: I assume that most of the people tested by FTDNA, EA or whatever who indicate Italy as country of origin are indeed Americans of Italian descent. Well, 70-80% of Italian-Americans have roots in southern Italy and in a country with such a difference between north and south as Italy this can distort the real proportions between haplogroups.

That's why, in my humble opinion, some haplogroups are overestimated whereas others are underestimated.

I hope the future will allow to people like me and Eki who don't have an Irish or Scottish ancestry to know more of the "genetical history" of their respective countries.