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Misinformation in the Genographic Atlas

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  • Misinformation in the Genographic Atlas

    The information concerning haplogroup U5 in both the Genographic Atlas and in FamilyTreeDNA is incorrect. My advice is to consult specialists in relation to the history of the Saami area. Such invalid statements are unprofessional.

    The text is as quoted:

    “U5 Haplogroup - lineages are restricted to Finland in its variation. This is likely the result of the significant geographical, linguistic, and cultural isolation of the Finnish populations, which would have restricted geographic distribution of this subgroup and kept it fairly isolated genetically. The Saami, reindeer hunters who follow the herds from Siberia to Scandinavia each season, also have U5 lineages in their population, indicating that these may have been introduced during their movements into these northern territories.”
    The Saami does not and has never followed the reindeer herds from Siberia to Scandinavia every season and therefore could not have been introduced to U5 in such movements. The reindeer herding Saami have moved between the inland and coast inside the Saami areas. It is important to add that most Saami are not and have never been reindeer herders, even though most have been hunter and gatherers much longer than people in areas where agriculture is more productive than in the arctic.

    In the text just quoted the writer seems to have mixed between the Reindeer herding people in Siberia (e.g. the Nenets and Samoyeds) and the Saami people, but these Siberian cultures and also genetic pools are different from the Saami.


    Please correct the quoted text in the Atlas and the same texts that are distributed by Family Tree DNA.




    The major migrations from Siberia to Scandinavia, Finland and Kola in historic times (particularly from the medievial period) are the people called Kvens. It is possible that the Kvens brought yDNA hg N and mtDNA hg D and Z to the Saami and Finnish gene pool. Their origin is uncertain, but they spoke a finno-ugric language, similar to ones of the Finnish/Suomi and the Saami populations. Most Kvens have adapted to Saami customs and married in to Saami families and nor have they moved reindeers from Siberia to Scandinavia.



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    Last edited by Wena; 30 May 2006, 06:15 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Wena
    The major migrations from Siberia to Scandinavia, Finland and Kola in historic times (particularly from the medievial period) are the people called Kvens. It is possible that the Kvens brought yDNA hg N and mtDNA hg D and Z to the Saami and Finnish gene pool. Their origin is uncertain, but they spoke a finno-ugric language, similar to ones of the Finnish/Suomi and the Saami populations. Most Kvens have adapted to Saami customs and married in to Saami families and nor have they moved reindeers from Siberia to Scandinavia.



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    Well, I don't agree with that. I believe those who Norwegians now call Kvens are the same as the Finnish/Suomi (the majority of Kven males are probably of hg N). I think those who in the Iron Age gave Kvenland (today Finnish Österbotten and Swedish Vesterbotten) its name might have been Scandinavians of hg I1a. I think the phylogram of I1a (see link) supports that. You notice that most I1a in Finland is found in the northern coast of Gulf of Bothnia (Österbotten) and the frequency there is about the same as in the opposite coast in Sweden (Vesterbotten). There are less I1a in southern and eastern Finland and in the Finnish Lapland.

    http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...=figure&id=FG1

    Comment


    • #3
      Wena is right on that Saami people don't follow the reindeer herds from Siberia to Scandinavia, and that most Saami are no longer reindeer herders. However, it is most likely true that the Saami people came from Siberia to Scandinavia when following their reindeers, and that all Saami people were reindeer herders if we go far enough back in time. The Genographic Project is all about history, not present, and the text therefore only have to be slightly modified.

      The story gets really confusing when we get into the names of the different ethnic groups that arrived at different times. The word "Finns" sometimes refer to Saamis, and "Kvens" sometimes refers to Finns. The language of the Kvens that arrived was Finnish, and the modern interpretation of Kvens are therefore that they were Finns from Finland.

      If Saami activists manage to convince the Genographic Project that they are the true natives of Scandinavia, then that would mean that native Scandinavians who have lived in Northern Scandinavia for at least 20 000 years could lose any possibility to preserve their traditional way of life. The Saami already have their own parliament, and have been able to take control over natural resources in Norway's northernmost county "Finnmark" through a law that gives people special rights based on ethnic belonging (sick!). Native Scandinavians in this beautiful county can no longer fish salmon in the rivers, go on excursions to pick mushrooms and berries, or build themselves cabins along the coast where they can enjoy life during vacations. Now the Saami parliament want all rights to oil found thousands of miles off the coast. This is actually quite funny since all towns along the coast are populated by Scandinavians, and the Saami towns are located far from the coast. I would like to point out that most Saamis are very nice people, and that the extremists in the Saami parliament and elsewhere are not representative of the average Saami.

      This is not a political forum, and I honestly didn't expect to discuss political issues here. In this particular case I think it was right to shed some light on seemingly innocent claims, to reveal their true nature and consequences. I don't want to post anything more on this political subject, but those who are extremely interested might find if worthwhile to look at my comments in this thread: http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1449

      Comment


      • #4
        Native,

        I will not begin a "political" debatte, but as far as I can see everything you write is quite wrong. Again I must remind you to read your history books and not rumours you hear in town at your local pub.

        As a descended of the sea saami, that always have been the most numerous of the saami groups, I can tell you this, even not with the Saami Parliement, we still cant take one bloody cod up of the ocean without a quota these days (that most of us dont have) and it is well documented that we also lost the old hunting ground in the land around the fjords, later on we also loose land for tame raindeer hurds to the inland saami.

        Reality check. So what do we have left of options? Take a education and leave or stay and become a social case. So I dont understand the "heck" what you mean by saying the Saami are taking over the land, seems more like we are bribed two ways, either to leave or slowly perish in alcohol paid by the local finance center, the social welfare office.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Eki
          Well, I don't agree with that. I believe those who Norwegians now call Kvens are the same as the Finnish/Suomi (the majority of Kven males are probably of hg N). I think those who in the Iron Age gave Kvenland (today Finnish Österbotten and Swedish Vesterbotten) its name might have been Scandinavians of hg I1a. I think the phylogram of I1a (see link) supports that. You notice that most I1a in Finland is found in the northern coast of Gulf of Bothnia (Österbotten) and the frequency there is about the same as in the opposite coast in Sweden (Vesterbotten). There are less I1a in southern and eastern Finland and in the Finnish Lapland.

          http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...=figure&id=FG1
          Also Egil's saga says Nor, "the founder of Norway", was from Kvenland. Regardless if the saga is fiction or not, I don't think the Scandinavian Egil would have wrote his saga if Nor had been Finnic and Kvenland had totally been populated by Finnish people. I think the saga also tells about how Nor's brother Gor travelled to visit his relatives in what is now Denmark. I don't think Finnish Gor would have had relatives in that far south-west. I'm not saying the sagas are accurate historical documents, but I think there's some truth in them or at least they tell something about how the writers saw the world in those times.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvenland
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3r

          Comment


          • #6
            I am not exactly sure about what is meant by "founder" here, because it was the viking king Harald Hårfagre (king from 872 to 933 AD) who made Norway a single country. Before that the country was fragmented into numerous small kingdoms ruled by what we today would have referred to as warlords. Snorre writes about the history of the first viking kings, and mention that Odin and a handful of other people came "from the East". A semi-scientific expedition has found a location in Ukraine that seems to fit the description. The vikings had lots of activity in the White Sea area (easy access and transportation of heavy goods by sea), and the people living there spoke some kind of Finnish/Kvenish back then.

            Let's be honest here: Sea Saamis are not numerous, and not a single town or city along the coast have a Saami majority. Karasjokk and Kautokeino, two towns in the interior of Finnmark, are on the other hand almost 100% Saami. These are the only Saami towns. It is nothing wrong by being few, it just makes you more unique.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Native
              I am not exactly sure about what is meant by "founder" here, because it was the viking king Harald Hårfagre (king from 872 to 933 AD) who made Norway a single country. Before that the country was fragmented into numerous small kingdoms ruled by what we today would have referred to as warlords. Snorre writes about the history of the first viking kings, and mention that Odin and a handful of other people came "from the East". A semi-scientific expedition has found a location in Ukraine that seems to fit the description. The vikings had lots of activity in the White Sea area (easy access and transportation of heavy goods by sea), and the people living there spoke some kind of Finnish/Kvenish back then.
              Snorre wrote about the Bjarmians and Bjarmaland. Although it seems that some think the Bjarmians were Kvens and Bjarmaland formed the most eastern part of Kvenland:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjarmia

              About the small kingdoms, sagas tell that sons of Nor ruled some of those small kingdoms:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3r

              Thránd ruled Trondheim area, Gard Agdi ruled Agdir and his descendants ruled southwestern regions of Norway, and Raum inherited south-eastern Norway.

              I find the name Raum particularly interesting. There is a river called Rauma in Norway and a town called Rauma in western Finland. There are also rivers called Aura in both Norway and western Finland. Western Finland also have several places called Aura.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Native
                Let's be honest here: Sea Saamis are not numerous, and not a single town or city along the coast have a Saami majority. Karasjokk and Kautokeino, two towns in the interior of Finnmark, are on the other hand almost 100% Saami. These are the only Saami towns. It is nothing wrong by being few, it just makes you more unique.
                Because you cant see them today, dont mean they have not been there or are not there, but they have forgotten or suppressed their origin, supringsly many still can remember they had Seasaami speaking grand or great grandparents. If you are aware of certain "Saami" phenotypes you can still see them far southwards at the coast, of course in the later centuries they have become more mixed and dissappearing into the norwegian coastal population.

                I assume your Norwegian, you might want to read "In Maasoei people descent from Louis Phillipe" (In Norwegian) http://home.online.no/~sveilund/skolehist/johng-n.htm

                I quote a part from the text (own transallation) "He knew very well that there had lived Saami along the coast, 'in every fjordhole' even."

                Noaide

                Comment


                • #9
                  An additional comment on the misinformation in the texts from The Genographic Project

                  It seems like a paradox to state that the Saami may have picked up U5 between Siberia and Scandinavia, since U5 and particularly U5b1 is about 0% in Siberia. Different studies are hyperlinked, click and read.

                  Nor is it likely that the Saami have picked up U5 in Finland or Karelia since the frequency of U5b1 in Finland is found to be about 2% and about 6% in Karelia. From the same study


                  U5b1: InariSaami 31.8 SkoltSaami 36.2 NorrbottenSaami 32.0 KarasjokSaami 52.0


                  The frequency of U5 it is over 50% in the Saami gene pool, with about 76% in Saami of Kautokeino. The other highly frequent mtDNA hg V is neither seen in high frequencies in the other populations. Here are some of the studies done of the Saami U5 motif:

                  Hg U5b1: KautokeinoS 76% KarasjokS 51.3% NorcoastSaami 39.1% FinlandSaami 50%




                  U5a: SwedishSaami .0 FinnishSaami 2.9 NorwegianSaami .7
                  U5b: SwedishSaami 26.5 FinnishSaami 40.6 NorwegianSaami 56.8 Karelians 6% Other Finns 6.7




                  The study of Tambets et.al(2004) refered to and the studies of for instance Derbeneva et.al(2002), Saillard et.al(2000), Fedorova et.al(2003), Pakedorf et.al (2003) and Puzyrev et.al(2003) show that the Siberian people (including the Khants, Mansis, Nganasans, Nenets, Selkups, Kets, Dolgans, Buryats, Eveks and Altaians all have 0 % of hg U5 and U5b1 while the Yakuts have 0.5% of mtDNA hg U5. Also mtDNA hg V is 0% in all Siberian groups except for 0.7% in the Mansis.

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                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eki
                    I believe those who Norwegians now call Kvens are the same as the Finnish/Suomi (the majority of Kven males are probably of hg N).
                    I think those who in the Iron Age gave Kvenland (today Finnish Österbotten and Swedish Vesterbotten) its name might have been Scandinavians of hg I1a. I think the phylogram of I1a (see link) supports that. You notice that most I1a in Finland is found in the northern coast of Gulf of Bothnia (Österbotten) and the frequency there is about the same as in the opposite coast in Sweden (Vesterbotten). There are less I1a in southern and eastern Finland and in the Finnish Lapland. http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...=figure&id=FG1

                    Most Kven males probably have N3, it is possible to infer that from the high frequency of yDNA hg N in Finnish males, in the Kven areas of Gulf of Bothnia in Norrbotten Sweden and in the Saami areas where very many of the Kvens married into Saami families. If one dare to trust what The Genographic states, the origin of yDNA hg N3 was somewhere in Siberia.
                    Most of the Kvens are recent immigrants to the Saami and Finnish areas, i.e. particularly after 1500 and in Norway their immigration is registered in the censuses between 1830-1860. In an area of the county of Finnmark they totally changed the population patterns between 1865 and 1875, and became the majority population. They first came to Finland and Northern Sweden.

                    I am confident that halplogroup I1a (H2 in the following article) has been present in the Saami populations since they migrated up there after the ice age. Take a look at this article of Raitio et.al (2006):

                    All Saami has 33% I1a.
                    Skolt Saami population has 52% I1a.
                    The Inari Saami in the Finnish Lapland have 34% I1a.


                    The Skolt Saami of Scandinavia have a very much higher frequency of I1a, higher than any other Scandinavian population. An informant from the Skolt Saami areas tells that the Skolt Saami for a long time have been very protective of their group and culture, not easily accepting new members into their groups. The rest of the Saami have been more welcoming of new members, and as a result they are more mixed with Kvens and other immigrants to these areas.

                    Eki, the highest frequency of I1a in Finland is among the Inare/Enare Saami, and not in the Gulf of Bothnia.

                    Northern Finns have no observable frequency of I1a. These numbers shows that Western Finns and the Inari/Enare Saami in Finland have a comparable percentage of I1a. Finland has in general a low percentage of I1a

                    Eastern Finns have 15% of I1a.
                    Western Finns have 32% of I1a.
                    All Finns have 19% of I1a.


                    As you see from the frequency tables in the Study of Raitio et.al (2006) some Saami groups have a much higher percentage of I1a than other Norwegians, Swedes or Finns than shown in the study of Rootsi et.al(2004).


                    Table 5 in Ratio et.al shows that the Kola Saami has a very high percentage of yDNA hg N (H16) and a much lower frequency of I1b than the other Saami populations, so Kven immigration have dramatically changed their gene pool. Probably because the Kvens origin are in Siberian (Russia) and they have thereby been exposed to these recent immigrations for a longer period. The pattern is opposite for the Skolt Saami population of Scandinavia, they have protected themselves, because of that their gene pool have not changed dramatically.
                    ______________

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Wena
                      Most Kven males probably have N3, it is possible to infer that from the high frequency of yDNA hg N in Finnish males, in the Kven areas of Gulf of Bothnia in Norrbotten Sweden and in the Saami areas where very many of the Kvens married into Saami families. If one dare to trust what The Genographic states, the origin of yDNA hg N3 was somewhere in Siberia.
                      Most of the Kvens are recent immigrants to the Saami and Finnish areas, i.e. particularly after 1500 and in Norway their immigration is registered in the censuses between 1830-1860. In an area of the county of Finnmark they totally changed the population patterns between 1865 and 1875, and became the majority population. They first came to Finland and Northern Sweden.
                      I'm not that interested in Kvens of today. I'm more interested in Kvens of 600 AD. I believe they were genetically different people than Kvens of today. I believe the Kvens of 600 AD gave the name TO the area where they lived in, and the Kvens of today got their name FROM the area where they now live. Just like people in Lapland are called Laplanders but they aren't generally the same as Saami.

                      Originally posted by Wena
                      Most [B]
                      The Skolt Saami of Scandinavia have a very much higher frequency of I1a, higher than any other Scandinavian population. An informant from the Skolt Saami areas tells that the Skolt Saami for a long time have been very protective of their group and culture, not easily accepting new members into their groups. The rest of the Saami have been more welcoming of new members, and as a result they are more mixed with Kvens and other immigrants to these areas.

                      Eki, the highest frequency of I1a in Finland is among the Inare/Enare Saami, and not in the Gulf of Bothnia.
                      The Skolt Saami and other Saami are few and they don't make much impact on the overall phylograms of Fennoscandia even if they were 100% I1a. As you can see from the phylogram, the highest frequency of I1a is clearly in southern and central Norway and southwestern Sweden (the darkest parts in the phylogram). In Finland the frequency is clearly the highest in Österbotten and Satakunda (western Finland). I believe I1a came to Finland from central Norway (Trondheim area) through central Sweden (Jämtland and Helsingland) and then over the Gulf of Bothnia.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eki
                        I'm not that interested in Kvens of today. I'm more interested in Kvens of 600 AD. I believe they were genetically different people than Kvens of today. I believe the Kvens of 600 AD gave the name TO the area where they lived in, and the Kvens of today got their name FROM the area where they now live.
                        Here's a good explanation of the difference between modern and ancient Kvens. It says the upper class of the ancient Kvens might have been Swedish traders. I think they may instead have been Norwegian traders or traders of Norwegian ancestry from Jämtland or Helsingland:

                        http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/Cwen

                        Cwen

                        Firstly, Cwens refers to a historical group of people or an alliance of fishermen, hunters and warriors, usually associated with a western Finnic people. The only historical sources of Cwens are Anglo-Saxon chronicles and Norse sagas where e.g. Orkneyinga saga it is stated that they ruled in Cwenland (presumably along the coast shore of Gulf of Bothnia) and their active period is estimated by historians to be ca. 800-1100 AD. Although findings are sparse, judging from grave findings in Ostrobothnia, there is some archaeological support of a class based hierarchy, presumably based on fur trade, where a leading class could have consisted of Swedish traders or an upper class of domestic origin, but they are dated to 6th century.

                        The term Cwen is first used in Account of the Viking Othere voyage to Northern Scandinavia (or Arctic Ocean) ca. 9th century, where "Cwenaland" was located above "Sweoland". The term was used to distinguish reindeer herders (called Fenni) from non-herders (called Cwen). The old viewpoint that Cwen is equal to (Finnish) "Kainulaiset" (Ostrobothnians) and "Kainuu" (Ostrobothnia) has not found etymological acceptance by some researchers. The spelling Quen is used in Latin texts from the 17th century. It was previously assumed by historians that regions in Southern Lapland and below were not inhabited by South Sami groups, and hence Cwens were the aboriginals of those regions. However, this statement is not supported by modern research.

                        Secondly, the term Cwen (or Kven) refers to the Finnish minority people in north Norway, who settled there during the 16th century. The second emigration golf of Kven in Nothern Norway was in the beginning of the 19th century. They were poor farmers looking for land in the provinces Nordland, Troms and Finnmark. They integrated quickly into the Norwegian society to live with the Norwegians and Saami people. For instance in places like Vädsö - where they were the majority of the population - they considered the Norwegian cultural identity as the standard.

                        From around 1880 on they were treated as an minority and forced to use Norwegian instead of their own language. This was very common in the whole of Europe around this time and Norway had their Norwegiazation policy which was harder on the Saami because the Kven had a similar cultural identity and spoke more Norwegian. Around the 1970s they and the Saami were openly allowed to use Kven and teach it to their children at schools which took its form via special language laws for minorities.

                        Kven is considered as a Finnish dialect, although some linguists say it is a language. They speak a Finnish dialect. Cwen Finnish is mostly like Finnish, but has many Norwegian loanwords, e.g. tyskäläinen ("German" Norw. tysk, Finn. saksalainen) and uses old Finnish words (not modern Finnish which is spoken in Finland). The Finnish Kainuu dialect (or people) is of the same origin. (See also: Tornedalians)
                        Last edited by Eki; 2 June 2006, 05:23 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eki
                          The term Cwen is first used in Account of the Viking Othere voyage to Northern Scandinavia (or Arctic Ocean) ca. 9th century, where "Cwenaland" was located above "Sweoland". The term was used to distinguish reindeer herders (called Fenni) from non-herders (called Cwen).
                          This is obviously wrong, the Cwen term have not been used to distinguish between raindeer hurders and from non-herders in Otheres Voyage. All the people he sow along the coast was Finns (=Sea Saami).

                          The seasaami did distinguish themself around 1600th century from the raindeer hurders saying that they are "Finns" and the raindeer hurding or mountain Saami to be "Lapps".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Noaide
                            This is obviously wrong, the Cwen term have not been used to distinguish between raindeer hurders and from non-herders in Otheres Voyage. All the people he sow along the coast was Finns (=Sea Saami).

                            The seasaami did distinguish themself around 1600th century from the raindeer hurders saying that they are "Finns" and the raindeer hurding or mountain Saami to be "Lapps".
                            It can be wrong, but not necessarily. You are talking about the 16th century and Othere lived in the 9th century. Things might have changed between the 9th and the 16th century.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eki
                              It can be wrong, but not necessarily. You are talking about the 16th century and Othere lived in the 9th century. Things might have changed between the 9th and the 16th century.
                              Well, both sources have in common the word "Finn" about the seasaami people during these 5-600 years.

                              By the way, in Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in "The History and Geography of Human Genes" 1994 the Saami in northern Scandinavia have a very distinct autosomal genetical profile from all other neightbouring populations or any other populations for that matter.

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