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The Black Sea R1b Refugium

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  • #76
    Originally posted by F.E.C.
    I thought the first language to split from this family was Germanic. As a matter of fact, Celtic and Italic share some features all the other languages don't: the singular genitive ends in i, the deponent verb in r, the future in b; some similarities occur in the lexicon as well.
    On the contrary, the Germanic languages show some pre-IE elements unknown to the Italic and Celtic languages.
    I think you're right and that Celtic and Italic remained together for awhile as one undifferentiated group after the IEs who would develop Germanic headed north. I think the Proto-Germans encountered a non-IE population in Scandinavia and North Germany that contributed to the Germanic consonant shift, among other things. It doesn't seem likely that was a Uralic population, however. They were too far east at the time.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Stevo
      It is likely that the peoples inhabiting Neolithic Europe spoke a welter of perhaps unrelated languages and dialects.
      For me this is a central point. Abundant world examples show that without the transportation and other technologies needed to hold together a state or empire, a language cannot remain unified beyond the tribal level for very long. Within as little as a thousand years, the language breaks up into descendants that are only partially comprehensible. In another thousand years, they are fully incomprehensible; and in another ten thousand years, it becomes almost impossible to show the languages were ever related at all. The Native American experience is an excellent example of this.

      Initially, sailing was the only empire-building transportation; a complex state could only arise along a river or seacoast. Later, horseback and the horse-drawn cart made overland empires possible.

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      • #78
        Proto-Lappish before Germanic?

        Originally posted by Stevo
        I think the Proto-Germans encountered a non-IE population in Scandinavia and North Germany that contributed to the Germanic consonant shift, among other things. It doesn't seem likely that was a Uralic population, however. They were too far east at the time.
        There seem to be suggestions that the Lapps have gone trough a language shift from Proto-Lappish to Finnic-Ugric.

        "In accordance with this, it may be concluded that whichever the language – a Finno-Ugric or non-Finno-Ugric –, brought behind the ice field by the Lapps’ ancestors, it certainly preserved well under the conditions of isolation. After the icecap had conclusively thawed, the Lapp and Finnic language forms came into contact and a language shift actually took place – the transition of the Lapps to the Finnic language form with a strong substratum from their own earlier language form, preserved in their new language form. This supposition is backed up by the whole picture showing what happens if we observe the hopeless attempts to take Finnic and Lapp languages back to a common proto-language."

        http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~lillekas/mainlanguage.html

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        • #79
          That sounds reasonable to me. I think there were all sorts of languages spoken throughout prehistoric Europe that have died out but that left traces in the languages that assimilated them.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Stevo
            Didn't the R1b info in the atlas at the Genographic Project web site once mention the idea that R1bs spent the last Ice Age in Iberia? Now there is no mention of that.

            Does that apparent change represent a recognition of the latest ideas that there may have been other refugia for R1bs, like Italy, perhaps the area north of the Black Sea, and Anatolia?
            Yes at one point, but they would've spent time in either Italy or Iberia some R1b's of DYS393=12 stayed in Balkan refuge.. With DYS393=13, AMH, they stayed in Italy, Britain, and Iberia (les Cro-magnons)..

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Stevo
              Of course, that is true: Scandinavia could not have been an Ice Age refuge and neither could the British Isles.

              The basis for believing a place was an Ice Age refuge cannot solely be that it could have been. And it cannot be based on the genetic make-up of the modern population either, because people move. If the y-dna in the putative refuge is younger than the same sort of y-dna elsewhere, then it seems likely that the bearers of the younger y-dna are relative newcomers, and the refuge may not have been a refuge at all.

              I realize I could be wrong. There are obviously some heavy hitters behind the idea of the Iberian Refuge, and I am no geneticist. But, as far as I can tell, there is no real substantive evidence that R1b weathered the last Ice Age in Iberia. No Iberian Paleolithic remains have been shown to have been R1b, and R1b, by the geneticists' own standard of diversity, gets progressively older as one moves east.

              My own very inexpert opinion is that R1b moved west from some non-Iberian refuge following the last Ice Age, maybe from Anatolia, maybe from the Pontic-Caspian area, maybe from Italy, maybe from more than one of those places.

              If I am wrong, maybe we'll find out someday. For now, this makes for some interesting discussions!
              HI Guys,

              I'm the administrator of the Hungarian Bukovina project. Our members were all Hungarian speakers in Transylvania by the 1600's or so. So far, with 19 results back, we have the following: (7)R1a, (4)I1b, (3)R1b, (2)E3b, and one each of I1c, G, and J2.

              With respect to the R1b's; this was a very unexpected finding. To postulate a migration from East to West makes a lot more sense in the case of my project participants.

              Beth Long

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              • #82
                Synthesis of Three Controversies

                I classify the following as an attempt to be speculatively integrative, triangulating among three different controversies: (1) debate about the principal Ice Age refuge for the R1b haplogroup, (2) a linguistic debate regarding claimed similarities between Euskara (Basque language) and Georgian, and (3) the Black Sea deluge theory. I acknowledge that present evidence of low subclade variation among R1b-haplogroup Basques challenges the assumption made in this speculation that Iberia was the principal Ice-Age refuge for R1b. In Saxons, Vikings, and Celts, Bryan Sykes (2006, p. 285) offers the following basis for a rebuttal to that kind of challenge: "In the [British] Isles very large numbers of men, perhaps all of them in the clan of Oisin [R1b haplogroup], are descended from only a few genetically successful ancestors...One of the genetic consequences of the rise of powerful men is that they monopolize the women and have more children...That is why the diversity has been lost. It is because comparatively few men have left patrilineal descendants. So, the longer a clan has been in a place like the Isles, the more similar the Y-chromosomes become. That is the reason our Celtic Y-chromosomes are so alike."

                The relative incidence of the R1b Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe is shown in maps to which links are provided below.

                http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...b_large_RG.jpg

                http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...2/10/1964/FIG6

                The greatest concentration of the R1b Y-DNA haplogroup is in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and the Basque region of Spain. These maps also indicate heightened incidence of the R1b haplogroup in the region east of the Black Sea. For reasons explained below, this apparently heightened incidence of R1b east of the Black Sea is very interesting. (I call this local heightening of R1b-haplogroup incidence "apparent" because the sampling of DNA is still thin in many parts of the world; maps like these will surely be revised as more data are gathered.)

                On one of my trips to Moscow in the early 1990s, a fellow passenger on my plane was a linguist from the Republic of Georgia. He claimed that Basque (Euskara) and Georgian had some intriguing linguistic commonalities. That claim is controversial among linguists, and research regarding the controversy continues.

                http://www.ling.lu.se/persons/Arthur/caucprojreport.pdf

                http://email.eva.mpg.de/~cysouw/pdf/cysouwKOENIG.pdf

                http://www.upf.edu/cexs/recerca/bioe...eokur-AJPA.pdf

                The linguist from the Republic of Georgia was prepared to accept a claim that these two modern languages stem from a common proto-language, but he was frustrated by his inability to construct a plausible story about how these distinct-from-neighbors linguistic communities came to be in such distant locations. Heightened incidence of the R1b Y-DNA haplogroup in the region east of the Black Sea would lend a different dimension of credibility to his based-in-linguistics speculation.

                I expect that the consilience hinted by correlation between local heightening of R1b-haplogroup incidence in the Republic of Georgia and still-controversial linguistic claims about Basque-Georgian similarity will someday be triangulated with another scientific controversy. Namely, the geological and archaeological debate over the Black Sea deluge theory.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

                As Ice Age glaciers melted and sea levels rose, one hypothetical scenario could involve western-Mediterranean fishing boats piloted by men who belonged to the R1b Y-DNA haplogroup and who spoke proto-Basque being swept through the newly breached Bosporus (Istanbul Strait) as waters of the Mediterranean Sea turned an inland lake into the Black Sea.

                Gary Glen Price

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                • #83
                  Black Sea as regium

                  I have long speculated at the importance of the Black Sea lowlands (now beneath the sea) as a regugium, and a geographical connection between the Georgia/Caucasus region and the Balkans. I would expect that the catostrophic flooding there after the last Ige Age melting caused survivors to spread out in various directions.

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                  • #84
                    May we sing from the same hymnsheet?

                    It seems there is plenty of evidence for the feasibility of Black Seabed land habitation for long periods before, during or since the LGM, including some freshwater geology residues from existence as a smaller lake. Then there is our fascination with the Sumerian-Judaic Noah tradition, to we genomologists the relatively "recent" terminal event in that place.
                    I looked for maps for the LGM Black Sea bed, as a possible refugium, and found much more in this ingenious summary of Homo Sapiens Events.
                    I strongly recommend using this profound pictorial synthesis for considering and discussing many aspects of what migrations were possible or probable in the last 150,000 years.
                    The great climatic difference between older interglacials and our own is a stunner!:

                    http://www.roperld.com/HomoSapienEvents.htm

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