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  • The Black Sea R1b Refugium

    Didn't the R1b info in the atlas at the Genographic Project web site once mention the idea that R1bs spent the last Ice Age in Iberia? Now there is no mention of that.

    Does that apparent change represent a recognition of the latest ideas that there may have been other refugia for R1bs, like Italy, perhaps the area north of the Black Sea, and Anatolia?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Stevo
    Didn't the R1b info in the atlas at the Genographic Project web site once mention the idea that R1bs spent the last Ice Age in Iberia? Now there is no mention of that.

    Does that apparent change represent a recognition of the latest ideas that there may have been other refugia for R1bs, like Italy, perhaps the area north of the Black Sea, and Anatolia?
    I have checked my personal Geno Project webpage after a long time, actually I was a little annoyed by the all-but-exhaustive notions NG provided about our haplogroup.
    I was glad to see a partial updating regarding all the haplogroups (at last!)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Stevo
      Didn't the R1b info in the atlas at the Genographic Project web site once mention the idea that R1bs spent the last Ice Age in Iberia? Now there is no mention of that.

      Does that apparent change represent a recognition of the latest ideas that there may have been other refugia for R1bs, like Italy, perhaps the area north of the Black Sea, and Anatolia?
      Maybe the SNP numbers you test possitive for might point to some kind of migration pattern?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by M.O'Connor
        Maybe the SNP numbers you test possitive for might point to some kind of migration pattern?
        I hope so.

        The latest info seems to point to more than one Ice Age refuge for R1bs, not just Iberia alone. It looks like R1bs may have taken refuge in Italy and/or the area north of the Black Sea, and perhaps Anatolia, as well.

        That may explain why some of the oldest R1b modals differ from the AMH and other Iberian varieties.

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        • #5
          I am somewhat bewildered by the changes in the refugia that seem to be implied by various sources, not only for R1b but for other haplogroups as well. What recent articles are you relying on?

          John

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Johnserrat
            I am somewhat bewildered by the changes in the refugia that seem to be implied by various sources, not only for R1b but for other haplogroups as well. What recent articles are you relying on?

            John
            Here is one discussion that mentions the Black Sea Refugium idea; here is another one that mentions the Anatolian and Italian refugia.

            There is an article here that discusses the possibility of R1b refugia other than Iberia. Alternative refugia are also mentioned in this article.

            Here is a scholarly article by Cinnioglu, et al, that contains speculation that some R1bs rode out the last Ice Age in Anatolia.

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            • #7
              The article by Cinnioglu was very interesting. Thanks.

              John

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Johnserrat
                The article by Cinnioglu was very interesting. Thanks.

                John
                You're welcome.

                I am hoping to find a scholarly treatment of the Black Sea Refugium idea, as well, but haven't been able to yet.

                It makes sense to me, but what the heck do I know?

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                • #9
                  Well, there is a locus of R1b east of the Black Sea:

                  http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...b_large_RG.jpg

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eki
                    Well, there is a locus of R1b east of the Black Sea:

                    http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...b_large_RG.jpg
                    That is very interesting. Thanks!

                    There is an article over at http://www.isogg.org/ that shows that the Basques are not the isolated native population they are often perceived to be. To find it you have to click on "Ancient DNA" on the home page and scroll down.

                    My own view is that the nativity of the Basques lies in their mtDNA, not their y-dna.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stevo
                      Didn't the R1b info in the atlas at the Genographic Project web site once mention the idea that R1bs spent the last Ice Age in Iberia? Now there is no mention of that.

                      Does that apparent change represent a recognition of the latest ideas that there may have been other refugia for R1bs, like Italy, perhaps the area north of the Black Sea, and Anatolia?
                      Stevo,

                      Have you read Genetics and the population history of Europe by Barbujani G, and Bertorelle G.?

                      It has an interesting illustration about possible glacial refugia.
                      http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...e=figure&id=F1

                      The full document is found here:
                      http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrend...3&blobtype=pdf

                      Victor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you Victor, this is very informative.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Victor
                          Stevo,

                          Have you read Genetics and the population history of Europe by Barbujani G, and Bertorelle G.?

                          It has an interesting illustration about possible glacial refugia.
                          http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...e=figure&id=F1

                          The full document is found here:
                          http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrend...3&blobtype=pdf

                          Victor
                          Great post Victor. I have always felt in my readings that to much was said about the neolithic period and not enough attention was paid to the paleolithic and mesolithic periods. The genetics and population history of Europe seems to give a good explanation of these possible movements.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Genetics and the Population History of Europe (Barbujani and Bertorelle), p.2
                            . . . a large fraction of the ancestors of current Europeans (at least two-thirds, based on the simulations of refs. 21 and 22) lived in the Levant, not in Europe, 10,000 years ago.
                            Extremely interesting article, Victor. I am somewhat nonplussed by the passage I quoted above, however.

                            Are they referring to the entire genetic picture and not merely to y-dna?

                            Or are they saying that the chief y-haplogroups in Europe today all came from the Levant?

                            Or are they referring to mtDNA?

                            Two thirds of the ancestors of modern Europeans lived in the Levant 10,000 years ago?

                            That is a startling statement, wouldn't you agree?

                            I thought the consensus was that modern Europeans descend for the most part from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

                            How could fully two thirds of our ancestors have come from the Levant during the Neolithic Period if our y-dna is Paleolithic European?

                            That report certainly puts some muscle behind Colin Renfrew's hypothesis.

                            Wow!

                            I'm not sure I'm ready to completely accept its conclusions.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Stevo,

                              I brought your attention to this article mainly because of the interest in the multiple glacial refugia idea.

                              Regarding that quote that you selected, it is indeed controversial but the authors are contrasting two different views about the Neolithic demic diffusion, as it is evident from quoting the full paragraph below. I didn't interpret that this idea is exactly what this study is proposing.
                              The model of Neolithic demic diffusion
                              has two important implications. One is
                              that the technologies for food production
                              did not spread by cultural contacts (which
                              would have had no genetic effect), but
                              essentially by population dispersal: farming
                              spread because the farmers did. The
                              second is that a large fraction of the
                              ancestors of current Europeans (at least
                              two-thirds, based on the simulations of
                              refs. 21 and 22) lived in the Levant, not in
                              Europe, 10,000 years ago.
                              To me, there are two passages that were the most significant. First:
                              On a worldwide scale, mismatch distributions
                              are unimodal in farming populations and
                              multimodal in hunting–gathering communities,
                              suggesting that demographic crises
                              have been common in the latter, not in the
                              former (42). Accordingly, founder effects
                              may have occurred at the origin of specific
                              European farming communities (43), but
                              they really seem an exception, not the rule.
                              Of this I would like to read more to understand exactly what's its real meaning. And next, the ending statement of the document:

                              Therefore, we think that the best reconstruction
                              of population history is the one that accounts for the
                              variation observed at the genome, not at the single-locus,
                              level.
                              As we know most population studies are "single-locus" based. Just as our genetic-genealogy is also based on a limited number of loci from a single chromosome and from mitochondrial DNA. So the final word on this matter as in many others has yet to be uttered. Consensus about ancient demographics will never reach 100%. For now, it is healthy to explore different avenues of research and let the soundest ideas be selected by the specific gravity of their own arguments and evidences.

                              Victor
                              Last edited by Victor; 11 June 2006, 10:31 AM.

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