R1a in the British Isles

[Eki]

How do you know some of the I1a currently found in Scandinavia did not come via recent immigration from Germany?

Probably much of the AS-variety of I1a did come from Denmark, Germany and the British Isles to Norway, Sweden and Finland. Look at Nordvedt's map:

http://www.northwestanalysis.net/Iweb5.jpg

Germany has 84% of I1a-AS, Denmark has 47%, Norway only 22% and Finland only 8%. Sweden being closer to Denmark has 32%. If the I1a-AS is as old in Norway, Sweden and Finland as I1a-N, there would be more of it.

R1b is the number one biggest y-haplogroup in Denmark.

Me and Noaide are talking about Norway and Finland, you are talking about Denmark. Denmark is not as much interest to us.

It is also very well attested in Norway and Sweden. It seems pretty plain, in fact, that R1b and R1a taken together as y-haplogroup R outnumber I1a in Scandinavia.

So really, I guess, if one lined up a bunch of Scandinavian males, most of them are going to be some kind of R.

All recent immigrants?

Depends on what you call recent. Is 500 to 1,500 years recent?

[Noaide]

Hi Stevo,

Yes it says alot about recent immigration, Y-STR haplotypes are not static sequences that stay the same forever, thats why they are used in population research. If you take two identical populations and isolate them for many thousands years they will of course deviate with random mutations in all their haplotypes in their respective haplogroups. In this table 11 I refer to it strongly suggest that R1b, at least the most freqent ones is a newcomer and I1a, R1b and N3 are older haplogroups because the occurence of these haplotypes is close to zero in continental Europe because the populations evolve differently.

Noaide

That does not prove or even indicate recent immigration. It proves what we already know: R1b is more widely spread than I1a. It says absolutely nothing about when it arrived in Scandinavia. It also says that, in numerical terms, there are simply more R1bs outside Scandinavia than in it. Again, something we already knew.

The mere fact that there are at least 6 R1b STR frequencies is an indication that the R1b in Scandinavia is diverse, i.e., that it has been there quite awhile.

What of that Swedish study I mentioned?

[Stevo]

Hi Stevo,

Yes it says alot about recent immigration, Y-STR haplotypes are not static sequences that stay the same forever, thats why they are used in population research. If you take two identical populations and isolate them for many thousands years they will of course deviate with random mutations in all their haplotypes in their respective haplogroups. In this table 11 I refer to it strongly suggest that R1b, at least the most freqent ones is a newcomer and I1a, R1b and N3 are older haplogroups because the occurence of these haplotypes is close to zero in continental Europe because the populations evolve differently.

Noaide

I don't think what you mentioned indicates recent immigration at all. Of course, it all depends on what you mean by "recent," which is a relative term. What it does indicate is that, for some unknown reason, you want to believe R1b is a relative newcomer to Scandinavia. What you want to believe and what is true are two very different things.

As I understand it, the age of a haplogroup in a particular area is partly determined by its diversity in that area. From what you've talked about in your own posts, it is readily apparent that R1b in Scandinavia is quite diverse.

There is also that Swedish study, done by actual geneticists who concluded that R1b is one of the oldest major y-haplogroups in Sweden. Since there are only three major y-haplogroups in Sweden - I1a, R1b, and R1a - that would mean that R1b would have had to arrive first or second. Arriving third would make it the last of the major y-haplogroups, not one of the oldest.

But we have had this same argument before and have said the same exact things we are saying now.

It's a waste of time in a thread that was supposed to be about R1a in the British Isles.

You know, R1a: part of y-haplogroup R, the y-haplogroup to which most Scandinavian males belong.

[Paul_Johnsen]

Paul, "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" by Dupny also mentions that South-Western Norwegian cities like Bergen had lots of immigrants from the continent and the British Isles in historic times, for example 18% of German names in 1801 census or 8% of Scots in 1640. It also says in the coastal cities Germans, Danes and Swedes represented 15% of the population:

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/norway.pdf

This is correct and many important Bergen families have Scottish roots (like the Greig-family) and German roots (like the Friele-family). However they probably haven't made an enormous impact on the genetic makeup of the country.

Firstly, most people didn't live in the cities, but rather they were farmeres and fishermen.

Secondly, some of the foreigners went back home after they had made enough money.

Thirdly, the Hansa-traderes had internal laws that forbad them to have any realtions with local women. They were to concentrate on the business. If anyone was caught with a girl, he risked being sent straight back home without a share of the profit in the venture.

Fourthly, it is very difficult to estimate the actual number of foreigners in the cities. The way this is done by looking at the names. This would most likely overestimate the number of foreigners significantly. The foreigners represented an elite. Therefore the bum in the street is far more likely to be overlooked in the official records. Furthermore many people coming in from the rural areas to the city tried hard to get ahead by getting a foreign name. If your mother had a German last name and your father was Norwegian, you would very likely be given your mothers maiden name in order to be associated with the elite.

And lastly, if Bergen (by far the largest city in Western Norway) actually was such a bastion of R1b, why is there apparently less R1b there than in the rest of the west (36% to 44% in the rest of the West and the South)?????

[Eki]

Paul, do you have any theories on why the Oslo region seems to have the highest frequency of R1a in Norway and that it then seems to spread towards Hamar,Lillehammar and Trondheim?

http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/R1a_large_RG.jpg

[Paul_Johnsen]

Paul, do you have any theories on why the Oslo region seems to have the highest frequency of R1a in Norway and that it then seems to spread towards Hamar,Lillehammar and Trondheim?

http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...a_large_RG.jpg

Yes, i do: My theory is that the map is computer generated as an average of the frequency of R1a in different countries. Therefore it doesn't fit with the real distribution patterens of R1a in Norway (you'd get at truer picture be reading the Dupuy-article an using the same algoritme in your head).

If the model had been feed only the data from Norway and Sweden, that the map would show a falling frequency from west to east.

[Eki]

Yes, i do: My theory is that the map is computer generated as an average of the frequency of R1a in different countries. Therefore it doesn't fit with the real distribution patterens of R1a in Norway (you'd get at truer picture be reading the Dupuy-article an using the same algoritme in your head).

If the model had been feed only the data from Norway and Sweden, that the map would show a falling frequency from west to east.

I think it must have some more specific geographical information than just the country level, because if you for example look at North-Western Spain in the R1b map, you'll notice that it almost completely lacks R1b even when the rest of Spain and the countries around Spain have high levels of R1b:

http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/R1b_large_RG.jpg

Of course I could be wrong, because I don't know how the maps were generated.

[Paul_Johnsen]

I think it must have some more specific geographical information than just the country level, because if you for example look at North-Western Spain in the R1b map, you'll notice that it almost completely lacks R1b even when the rest of Spain and the countries around Spain have high levels of R1b:

http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/R1b_large_RG.jpg

Of course I could be wrong, because I don't know how the maps were generated.

Yes, you could be wrong. That area is Basque / basque border. Hehe, according to the map there is about as much R1b as in Bilbao as in Western Finland.

[Eki]

Yes, i do: My theory is that the map is computer generated as an average of the frequency of R1a in different countries. Therefore it doesn't fit with the real distribution patterens of R1a in Norway (you'd get at truer picture be reading the Dupuy-article an using the same algoritme in your head).

If the model had been feed only the data from Norway and Sweden, that the map would show a falling frequency from west to east.

Why is the frequency of R1a in northern Iceland higher than in the south. It doesn't make sense if there's just one set of data for each country, because I don't think there are much R1a in places north from Iceland:

http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/R1a_large_RG.jpg

[Paul_Johnsen]

Why is the frequency of R1a in northern Iceland higher than in the south. It doesn't make sense if there's just one set of data for each country, because I don't think there are much R1a in places north from Iceland:

http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...a_large_RG.jpg

Due to "interference" from Britain and the fact that the map is based on on McDonald's map which places the the "Icelandic pie" north on the island.

If you'll notice the depresion of R1a in Finland falls at the point where McDonald has placed the "Finnish pie", likewise to Norwegian peak falls where the "Norwegian pie" is, and the there is a depresion where the "Swedish pie" is placed.

Look at the British Isle: according to the map there is a higher R1a-frequency on the west coast of Irland and the east coast of Scotland than the rest of the British Isle. This is hardly likely to be accurate.

[Stevo]

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