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I1a Not From Scandinavia?

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  • #91
    The fact that the Saami - a relatively isolated minority in Scandinavia - have any R1b at all contradicts the notion that R1b arrived in Scandinavia during the Middle Ages or afterward.

    Do you all really believe that R1b and R1a were not present in Scandinavia during the prehistoric period?

    When did the big migration of foreigners into Scandinavia take place?

    You haven't really been able to produce evidence that such a thing ever happened prior to the 20th century.

    However, if, for some unknown reason, it makes you all feel better to imagine that Scandinavia had no interloping R1bs and R1as during prehistoric times, then indulge the fantasy (regardless of the evidence, including the large numbers of R1bs there, especially in Denmark, where it is the largest y-haplogroup).

    It really doesn't matter to me.
    Last edited by Stevo; 12 May 2006, 01:37 PM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Stevo
      Where is the evidence of a mass migration of foreigners into Scandinavia prior to the 20th century?
      The norwegian historian Erik Opsahl have studied the immigration patterns to Norway under and after the Black Death and found that the immigration was immense in Norwegian terms in the medieval period (i.e. from about 1350) and that most of the immigrants were German, Dutch, Scots and Danes. The immigration was so high from 1350 that it generated strong reactions among the native Norwegians. Start reading and you’ll find out. A collection of good historical books on the subject was released not very long ago, I think it was in 2005. Opsahl was one of the co-authors.

      Besides that, some of the immigration is registered genealogically especially from 1500. In addition we have a whole town here in Norway where the Hansa Merchants settled and ruled from the medieval period, Bergen.

      When it comes to evidence for what I am saying try to read the articles I have added here and in my tread on U5b1. Then Noaide came up with a lot of interesting numbers on yDNA and its arrival in Scandinavia.

      The Saami are as Scandinavian and Nordic as anyone living here, and since they seem to have occupied the land here before others they are even more Scandinavian than the rest of the population. Give that some thought.

      Originally posted by Stevo
      Since the sources I cited say that Cro Magnon types moved into Scandinavia (which includes Denmark, BTW) by no later than the Mesolithic Period, and the older skeletons found there are of a different type, that is a pretty good indication that different prehistoric populations went into the making of the Scandinavian people.
      As said earlier, as with other science are this kind of archaeological researches are not foolproof (to use your word). Interpretations are presents a challenge and are easily coloured by ideologies and beliefs and additionally the Saami have many different kinds of physical types how can you tell it was another group of people.

      If your theory is correct the “Cro Magnon” people must have developed old specific genetic motifs (if they are different from the Saami). I have not seen any evidence for such old mutations; please send me the supportive evidence if you find any.


      Originally posted by Stevo
      You offer no realistic or plausible explanations for the high proportion of R1b in Scandinavia.
      Most of the R1b in Norway is most likely a consequence of newer immigrations, since these immigration waves came from Western Europe in historical times and since western Europe seem to have the highest freq of R1b. These immigrants came mainly during and after the Black Death, a plague that killed 2/3 of the Norwegian populations and left the rest of the population weak and arrested by illnesses and poverty. In 1470 there was a little over 100000 survivors and the last victim died in 1654, so you have to use your imagination and read more Norwegian history. Even if all countries lost large parts of their populations, most countries was more densely populated both before and after the Plagues. Knowing this it is not difficult to imagine what effect the large immigration from the continent must have had on the Norwegian Gene pool.

      _____________________________________

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Stevo
        The fact that the Saami - a relatively isolated minority in Scandinavia - have any R1b at all contradicts the notion that R1b arrived in Scandinavia during the Middle Ages or afterward.
        They haven't been isolated at least in historical times. At least not as isolated as Greenland Inuits. I personally know a woman whose mother was a Kolta Saami (a small minority of about 700 people in Finnish northern Lapland originally from Kola penisula in Russia) and her father was an ethnic Finn. She now lives in Helsinki in southern Finland.

        Comment


        • #94
          Noaide, as I mentioned Rootsi et.al found that unlike any other Scandinavians, the Saami men have a certain frequency of M170 (hg I*) in addition to M253 (hg I1a).

          Have you any ideas or knowledge about where this line fits in to the migration pattern? Its frequency is under 3%. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../41100.web.pdf



          Originally posted by Noaide

          Swedish Saami, Swedish national rate in (xx%)

          I1a - 31.4% (48.2%)
          N3 - 37.1% (6.9%)
          R1a - 20% (18.4%)
          R1b - 5.7% (22%)

          As we are talking about mixes: If Swedish Saami got all their R1a and I1a from the Swedes, why have the Swedish R1b men been so shy with the Saami ladies? Did they know they were R1b? Of course not! We are looking at something else here.

          Similar story with the Kildin Saami in Kola Peninsula, Russia, some distance away. Slavic Russian in ()

          I1a - 17.4% (13.1% not necessarly I1a all of it)
          N3 - 39.1% (8.3%)
          R1a - 21.7% (42.6%)
          R1b - 8.7% (21.3%)

          Also here the Russian R1b men seem to be shy, but we have more. North Russia areas mostly north of Moscow have historically been known to have been mostly by native Finnic-Uralic speakers (Komi, Permians, Veps and so) conquered as late as 1000-1300 AC, the Slavs have not affected this area noticable genetically as we see little R1b or the Slavic mix.

          I1a - 20.8%
          N3 - 28.6%
          R1a - 40.3%
          R1b - 0%

          So we can see here that there is Finnic-Ugric mix here from North-Russia to Sweden of somewhat equal male hg distributions over a huge area that cannot have been "poluted" much by Norse, Swedes, Finns or Slavs.

          This suggest a ancient migration from the east into the whole Scandinavian Penninsula with N3, I1a and R1a.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Wena
            Noaide, as I mentioned Rootsi et.al found that unlike any other Scandinavians, the Saami men have a certain frequency of M170 (hg I*) in addition to M253 (hg I1a).

            Have you any ideas or knowledge about where this line fits in to the migration pattern? Its frequency is under 3%. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../41100.web.pdf
            I do not see any patterns other than it seems to be there isolated. Either Norwegians, Swedes and Russians seems to have it. The Finns is not tested, but the Estonians the next best thing dont have it either. Other sources is far away and is possible very old remains of hg I. In the paper by Rootsi age of I* is estimated to be 24 000 years +/- 7 100 so no suprise it pop ups around Europe.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Noaide
              I do not see any patterns other than it seems to be there isolated. Either Norwegians, Swedes and Russians seems to have it. The Finns is not tested, but the Estonians the next best thing dont have it either. Other sources is far away and is possible very old remains of hg I. In the paper by Rootsi age of I* is estimated to be 24 000 years +/- 7 100 so no suprise it pop ups around Europe.
              There is a freq of over 5% of hg I* in southern france, so may be it is an old line migrating from Iberia.

              ____________________________________

              Comment


              • #97
                Wow...I skimmed this thread for 10 pages...

                And I must say I'm amazed at the posturing and the tossing aside of known evidence to make such frivolous claims. I'll not mention who as that is obvious even to those ones doing it.

                1) The Basques speak a language unrelated to any other in the world. They are located at the locus on the Atlantic coast in SW France and NW Spain. They are overwhelming R1B. Unless you proprose that the Basques (and by implication, all other R1Bs) swam over from Atlantis after it sank, it is quite obvious the men (along with their 'wifes', who of course wouldn't be carrying R1B, except maybe in some of the more bizarre redlight districts of Europe's big cities) carrying R1B (along with the other R branches) were the original settlers of Europe. R1B is a gradient with the highest percentages in the west. It gradually peters out as one goes east.

                2) The hgs I and N by contrast have well established links to Asia and Asian languages. The vast majority are also not severely geographically isolated from their eastern neighbors. Especially relative to the poor R1B Basques whose homeland presumably lies at the bottom of the Atlantic nowadays. The vast majority of their distributions follow well known ecological environmental distributions their cultures created a niche in (e.g. norther conifer forests and tundra, northern ice-capped ocean boundaries).

                3) Ghenghis Khan and the mongol hordes - in the end just the best documented and most sensational of the many stories of invasions by non-native folk from the east. Look at any intelligent discussion of Europe's archealogical history and there are mentions of innumerable episodes of invasions from the east. These repeated invasions and the deaths they led to among the native Europeans are the reason R1B peters out as one travels east in Europe. Do you suppose the black death arrived in Europe from a rat that swam the ocean from America or do you suppose the rat was a stow away in the supplies of a group invading Europe once again?

                3) The loci point you people keep refering to: All ports and centers of trade - it is well documented that such location are magnets for non natives. Look around at any western metropolitan area today for the proof. As such, amateurs sleuths with an agenda and professionals in search of the truth would be wise to avoid such areas if their aim if to find the earliest settlers of an area.

                4) Germany first came into existance in 1871. German as an 'ethnic' group didn't exist before then. These people were Hessens, Bavarians, Prussians, Saxons, and so on. Norwegians came into existance in 1905. Should I continue or do you get it.

                5) Hilter - the evil prototypical German refered to earlier - was Austrian (and one need only go back to before the end of WW I to say he was Astro-Hungarian) with some Jewish ancestry - which raises the probability enormously that Hitler had hg I. His ancestry being right in the heart of historic Hungary surely cries out for an investigation into Hilter's ancestry relating to the Hungarians and their close cousins the Finns, don't you think? There are living male descendant's of Hitler's brother who could help answer those questions. Perhaps Hitler's ancestors where displaced out of Scandinavia in historical times from the locus near Bergen? Hitler was not elected to Führer, he seized the job. Did you enjoy my claims? I hope next time you want to imply 90,000,000 Germans are Hitler wannabes you'll think of this and see understand the corelation of it some of the ludicrous claims you've been making in this thread. I'm not even 'German' but I find it most bizarre when people like you go out on your witch hunts to prove how righteous you are by percecuting people of a nation where at least 75% of the population was not even alive to commit the sins you want to destroy them for. Please, think independently, don't be brainwashed and go for the glamorous utopia of Hollywood pseudo-victimhood and self-righteousness.

                6) My Aunt Helga and Uncle Hakon out in the boondocks are not interested in coming to the big city and proving their worth. If you want a sample of their DNA you'll have to see what you can find in the outhouse after they've gone to bed. None of their neighbors are interested either. The data used in these HG studies are skewed to those with modern technology, a college education, and internet access and more money than what they know what to do with. Well, there you have it: large cities come into the picture once again. Cities are magnets for non native folk. These seriously calls into question the validity of the inferences many experts are making with this skewed data set.

                7) The Garden of Eden is in Crawford, Texas.

                8) Your claims will soon be improvable and moot - with the current mass migrations from the south and east into you favored areas of your favored peoples, the ability to find out definitively what you wish to prove will be impossible as these new migrants will be laying claim to be the original inhabitats of your favored areas.

                I've build the wall around your arguments and there is no escaping the truth. Accept the truth, it will set you free from worries that are inconsequential to securing your future.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by B52
                  2) The hgs I and N by contrast have well established links to Asia and Asian languages.
                  ...
                  4) Germany first came into existance in 1871. German as an 'ethnic' group didn't exist before then. These people were Hessens, Bavarians, Prussians, Saxons, and so on.
                  2) Hg I is an exclusively European haplogroup. It has no "links" to Asia or Asian languages.

                  4) The German Empire was first formed, and then dominated, by Prussia. The King of Prussia was simultaneously the Kaiser of Germany. Prussia wrested control over southern Germany from its historical leader, Austria, in the 1860s. The German Empire smoothly continued the expansionist chauvinistic policies of Prussia.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    B52,

                    May I ask who this posting was directed too?

                    Originally posted by B52
                    And I must say I'm amazed at the posturing and the tossing aside of known evidence to make such frivolous claims. I'll not mention who as that is obvious even to those ones doing it.

                    Comment


                    • I

                      2) If it is now claimed hg I has no links to the Middle East (that is in Asia) then experts are again revising their claims. They'll revise it 180 degrees again no doubt. Further demostrating the folly in this thread.

                      4) You forgot to mention Otto von Bismarck.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Noaide
                        B52,

                        May I ask who this posting was directed too?

                        Read the entire thread, look for another reference to Hitler and you'll see.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by B52
                          If it is now claimed hg I has no links to the Middle East (that is in Asia) then experts are again revising their claims.
                          Experts say that Hg I emerged out of the Middle East, in the same sense that Hg R emerged out of northwest Asia.

                          Interestingly, R1b has been found in both Asia and Africa:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
                          ---
                          Populations characterised as R1b1a (M18) and R1b1b (M73) with those distinctive markers but no M269 have been found, in Sardinia, and in central Asia, respectively. It is presumed that these are descendents of R1b1 populations which found other refuges from the ice. Another R1b population, from an apparently even earlier branching, has been found in Cameroon in west central Africa.
                          ---

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by b52
                            And I must say I'm amazed at the posturing and the tossing aside of known evidence to make such frivolous claims. I'll not mention who as that is obvious even to those ones doing it.
                            What frivolous claims are you referring to?

                            Originally posted by b52
                            1) The Basques speak a language unrelated to any other in the world. They are located at the locus on the Atlantic coast in SW France and NW Spain. They are overwhelming R1B. Unless you proprose that the Basques (and by implication, all other R1Bs) swam over from Atlantis after it sank…
                            At least I have not opposed that R1b is most frequent in the west. When it comes to the frequency of R1b and some other highly prevalent haplogroups in the Basques, this may be explained as bottleneck effects because of their long lasting isolation. As the Saami they (the Basques) are for this reason by many researchers in this field defined as genetic outliers in Europe.

                            Originally posted by b52
                            The hgs I and N by contrast have well established links to Asia and Asian languages. The vast majority are also not severely geographically isolated from their eastern neighbors.
                            Nothing wrong in having genes from Asia, but here you are pretty frivolous since yDNA hg I often is defined as a European haplogroup by genetic researchers.

                            Originally posted by b52
                            Ghenghis Khan and the mongol hordes - in the end just the best documented and most sensational of the many stories of invasions by non-native folk from the east. Look at any intelligent discussion of Europe's archealogical history and there are mentions of innumerable episodes of invasions from the east.
                            Ghengis Khan and the genes from his folks are recognizable in the places they went, but they did not go everywhere. I do not quite see where he fits into this discussion.

                            Originally posted by b52
                            Do you suppose the black death arrived in Europe from a rat that swam the ocean from America or do you suppose the rat was a stow away in the supplies of a group invading Europe once again?
                            I do not think anyone know exactly what caused the spread of the Black Death. What I mentioned was the huge effects of the Black Death and the “immense” immigrations from the European continent to Norway in the medieval period and the huge effects those events had on the Norwegian genetic pool.

                            Originally posted by b52
                            The loci point you people keep refering to: All ports and centers of trade - it is well documented that such location are magnets for non natives. Look around at any western metropolitan area today for the proof.
                            What loci point are WE referring to?

                            Originally posted by b52
                            As such, amateurs sleuths with an agenda and professionals in search of the truth would be wise to avoid such areas if their aim if to find the earliest settlers of an area.
                            I cannot see any wrong doing with trying to find the first settlers of an area. What is a problem with that? If that is possible it would be a very interesting for history and provide a lot of new insights.


                            Originally posted by b52
                            Germany first came into existance in 1871. German as an 'ethnic' group didn't exist before then. These people were Hessens, Bavarians, Prussians, Saxons, and so on. Norwegians came into existance in 1905. Should I continue or do you get it.
                            Of course names changes, but people in these areas do not change at the same rate as names. Present names are used as familiar frame of reference. Even if Norway became an independent state in 1905, the previous history here had happened and the national independence did not imply a replacement of the population. Therefore it makes sense talking about Norway even before 1905 in this context.

                            Originally posted by b52
                            Hilter - the evil prototypical German refered to earlier - was Austrian (and one need only go back to before the end of WW I to say he was Astro-Hungarian) with some Jewish ancestry - which raises the probability enormously that Hitler had hg I.
                            You have to get the genes of Hitler tested, this is claim beyond stupidity

                            Originally posted by b52
                            I hope next time you want to imply 90,000,000 Germans are Hitler wannabes you'll think of this and see understand the corelation of it some of the ludicrous claims you've been making in this thread.
                            Who claimed this? I must have missed something here.

                            Originally posted by b52
                            find it most bizarre when people like you go out on your witch hunts to prove how righteous you are by percecuting people of a nation where at least 75% of the population was not even alive to commit the sins you want to destroy them for.
                            Still do not know what text you are referring to. I cannot remember that such “hunts” have been made by anyone on this tread.

                            Originally posted by b52
                            Please, think independently, don't be brainwashed and go for the glamorous utopia of Hollywood pseudo-victimhood and self-righteousness.
                            Referring to the just cited text and the rest…. Is this hallucinations?

                            __________________________________
                            Last edited by Wena; 13 May 2006, 05:26 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Hi Wena ,Eki and everyone else

                              Wena, you are absolutely right about the fact that these tests are not able to predict looks of a person. However, it does not change the fact how I feel inside of myself.

                              I do believe in some kind of a genetic memory...hopefully future science can solve that mystery as well.

                              Personally, I love the Finnish archipelago. My home is just at the frontier of one of the most beatiful waterways of the world. My favorite summer or winter hobby is to sit at the granite stones and look into the horizon, as if I was waiting for someone to come home by boat. The truth is that I live very close to the Rosala Island which is known to have had a Viking inhabitants.

                              I have also some friends from Norway, it is like coming home. I even painted my house ice white as they have in the fishing villages in Norway.

                              I have just yesterday asked my brother to be tested so that I can find more about my father's side of my family.

                              That, I expect, is going also to be an interesting findning.

                              Greetings

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