I1a Not From Scandinavia?

[Guest Close e.ask]

A typical Finnish Woman?

I come from Western Finland. I am slightly taller than usual female folks, 176cm.

Since my DNA results came back couple of days ago, I am learning more about haplogroup H and 16311C-16519.

Inside myself I have always believed to be a Viking Woman. I live at the archipelago coast of the Finnish waters where the Vikings traveled at the ancient times. My husband and I sail the waters every summer to Sweden.

I also belong to the 18% of Finns belonging to a B-blood type.

I only know that my both parets have lived in Finland for generations, at least since 1700.

Greetings From Finland

[Noaide Registered User Find all posts View Profile Close Noaide]

Kvens

Eki,

"Men enno på slutten av 1800-talet er det notert i dette området på finsk side at eldre folk sa at vi er ikkje finlendarar, vi er «"Men enno på slutten av 1800-talet er det notert i dette området på finsk side at eldre folk sa at vi er ikkje finlendarar, vi er «kainuulaiset» og snakkar «kainuunkieli». Finlendarar, det er dei som kjem sørfrå og snakkar «suomenkieli». "

My translation: "... But yet at the end of 1800 century it has been noted in this area on the Finnish side that older people said we are not Finlanders (Suomi's), we are kainuulaiset and speak kainuunkieli. The Finlanders are those comming from the south and speak suomenkieli.

"Da trefte han bl.a. på Mikkel Kven i Børselv, som presenterte seg slik: «Eg er kven, fødd av kvenske foreldre i Kvenland i byen Tornio"

My translation: "... Then he met among others Mikkel Kven from Børselv (Finnmark, Norway) who presented him like this: 'I am a kven, born by kven parents in Kvenland in the city of Tornio."



Source: http://home.online.no/~sveilund/kalott/kvenar.htm

[Eki Registered User Find all posts View Profile Close Eki]

Since my DNA results came back couple of days ago, I am learning more about haplogroup H and 16311C-16519.

I'm also of mtDNA hg H, and funnily the only Nordic mtDNA match I have is from Norway.

Inside myself I have always believed to be a Viking Woman. I live at the archipelago coast of the Finnish waters where the Vikings traveled at the ancient times. My husband and I sail the waters every summer to Sweden.

That's interesting. The Finnish researchers have always said that the Finns are related to Estonians, Karelians, Komis, Maris, etc., but I have never felt any relatedness with them. Even before I knew my haplogroups, I liked to visit northern Norway and enjoyed very much the fjords and the snow-capped mountains. This might sound silly, but I have been wondering if a thing I call "genetic memory" exists. I mean, do people feel at home with certain kinds of environment and people their ancestors might have lived among?

[M.O'Connor FTDNA Customer Find all posts View Profile Close M.O'Connor]

I think if people sence a connection they can feel a connection too.

My Mtdna = H from Scotland

[Stevo R1b-FGC36981 Find all posts View Profile Close Stevo]

This might sound silly, but I have been wondering if a thing I call "genetic memory" exists. I mean, do people feel at home with certain kinds of environment and people their ancestors might have lived among?

That might explain why, when visiting the zoo, I have always felt at home at the Monkey House.

Seriously, though, it doesn't sound silly at all.

There might be something to the whole idea of genetic memory. I have always felt more at home in a forested area with a relatively cool climate and four distinct seasons.

I don't know if that means anything, since for the last 350 or more years my family has been in the USA, and I don't really know where my male line originated (other than some place in Northern Europe).

Maybe Batch 147 will provide some answers for me.

[Guest Close Wena]

I would add that it is an error to refer to I1a as "Germanic-Scandinavian" as if Germanic-Scandinavian people were ever a complete Y-DNA monolith.
The genetic strains that went into making up the original early Germanic/Scandinavian peoples were in place by the Middle Stone Age and were not limited to a single Y-DNA haplogroup.

Where do you find evidence for "original" (whatever that is) early Germanic/Scandinavians from Middle stonge age. Please send me the report.

I will try to answer the first part of your posting.

It is hard to understand why some Scandinavians are so hooked up in this connection with the Germans. I have nothing against Germans or anyone else, but I also find it a bit weird that you so often see this German-Scandinavia connection mentioned.

Let me try to give some explanations: We had German immigration particularly from the medieval ages. With the moneyed Hansa merchants from around 1100 and particularly from 1300, then with some powerful German nobility families and last but not least with the more numerous German, Dutch and other continental Europeans that immigrated from around 1400. I guess these people had much power in the Scandinavian countries, both to enrich themselves and to write history and define what and who counted and what/who did not. Some of them had the money and power to control society and symbols, and they did for hundreds of years and to a certain degree still do.

Then Norwegian and Swedish are categorized as Germanic languages, which may lead to some false correlations and over evaluation of a genetic connection between Germans and Scandinavians. Of course there are people with German heritage in Scandinavia and in Finland (particularly in the very southern parts), but largely Scandinavian and Finnish genes are not related to Germans. Some of the observed I1a may belong to descendants of Germans, but most bearers of hg I1a here do not. As I have pointed out earlier, the Saami are not Germans and they have high freqs with I1a.

Eki sent an URL with the following text from Family Tree DNA: “H2 is particularly common in Germany and Scotland.” This also supports what I was just telling. The German/Scandinavian genetic connection is overestimated.

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[Guest Close Wena]

But they were few and Scandinavia and Finland are big. They could not have been everywhere at the same time. There was room for other people too.

What you are saying here seems like a paradox. It is known from many different studies that the extreme values of certain haplogroups of the Saami people can be explained as founder effects because the Saami most probably have been isolated in their areas for thousands of years. There have been people populating the present Finland, Karelia, Sweden, Norway, Kola Peninsula and Estonia for more than 10000 years, but these people were the Saami. If there were anyone else around the Saami would not have been isolated.
Even today you find a Saami society in Estonia, isn’t that unexpected?

I believe that theory too. I even thought about the same theory when I was reading Snorri's sagas about Norwegian kings and I haven't heard about Heyerdahl coming up with the same theory.

Read the URL’s I sent in an earlier posting and you can read some of what he has said about those archaeological findings in the Azov area, about the interpretation of Snorre and more. He has even written a book on the subject, which I have not read.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001...ain319524.shtml
http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categorie..._storfjell.html

I never said N3 was rare, almost 70% of Finnish men are N3 but it doesn't make them Finns, Kvens or Saami, neither does I1a. What makes them Finns, Kvens or Saami is the culture they have lived in, and maybe the admixtures of different haplogroups.

I could not agree more.

What I meant earlier by "strange" was that the I1as and N3s might have been different tribes. So, I1a tribes were maybe familiar to other I1as because they spoke the same or similar language and looked similar.

I am sure that tribe members were not selected on the basis of haplogroup membership at any time or anywhere…. So far.

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[Guest Close Wena]

How about mtDNA hg H1b? FamilyTree DNA says Y-Hg I and mt-Hg H1b go together:

http://www.familytreedna.com/hclade2.html

"H1b is most frequent in Eastern and Northern Europe (like Haplogroup I for the Y-DNA), and if the ancestral site was Iberia gives us an idea of the post Glacial movements beginning, perhaps, 10,000 years ago."

Interesting to learn more about hg H, so thanks for the address.
The Text you referred to did not say that H1b and I was correlated (in your words “go together”), but said mtDNA hg H1b is as frequent as yDNA hg I in Eastern and Northern Europe.

The finding I referred to is found in the article “Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe” of Siiri Rootsi et.al (2004).

It did not only tell about the frequency of yDNA hg I compared to a mtDNA haplogroup, but also that it was positively correlated with mtDNA U5b at a quotient of 0.60 and with hg V at 0.47 at a very high significance level. This means that the male hg I1a and the U5b are very often(significantly) found together, and the same but somewhat more seldom for hg I males and hg V women.

To repeat myself it is well known that the highest frequencies of both hg U5b and hg V anywhere is among the Saami women.

“Interestingly, subclade I1a shows a distribution similar to the second PC of the synthetic maps based on classical genetic markers (Cavalli-Sforza et al.1994) and reveals a significantly positive correlation with mtDNA haplogroups V and U5b (r p 0.47; r p 0.60; significance level 0.999), which have been suggested to mark a postglacial population expansion from Iberia (Torroni et al. 1998, 2001; Tambets et al. 2004).”

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...997800041Guest


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[Guest Close Wena]

I come from Western Finland. I am slightly taller than usual female folks, 176cm.
Since my DNA results came back couple of days ago, I am learning more about haplogroup H and 16311C-16519. Inside myself I have always believed to be a Viking Woman.

Hi e.ask and Eki Another Viking wannabe.. Say cheeeeeese.


This I am sure about.

Haplogroups tested on the 23.nd chromosomal pair do not say anything about looks and this is one of the false correlations that are being made here all the time. People with an origin in Iran or Algeria with mtDNA hg H or U5 very unlikely looks like a person with origin and the same motif on the British Isles, Germany or among the Saami. Looks differ within the same motif and within close families. Isn’t looks Autosomal in heritage?

To use a personal example: One of the girls in my family is brunette, green eyed and about average height and have hg U5b1. Another girl with the same U5b1 motif is blond, much taller and blue eyed and even if they’re facial features shows family resemblance they also look different. Both pretty.

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[Stevo R1b-FGC36981 Find all posts View Profile Close Stevo]

Where do you find evidence for "original" (whatever that is) early Germanic/Scandinavians from Middle stonge age. Please send me the report.

I did not say they were Germanic in the Middle Stone Age.

Read what I wrote carefully. I said the genetic strains that went into the making of the original early Germanic people were in place by the Middle Stone Age.

There is a difference.

I will try to answer the first part of your posting.

It is hard to understand why some Scandinavians are so hooked up in this connection with the Germans. I have nothing against Germans or anyone else, but I also find it a bit weird that you so often see this German-Scandinavia connection mentioned.

You are confusing Germanic with German.

The two are not the same.

It is pretty much accepted that the early Germanic people first appeared in Jutland, the Danish islands, and southern Sweden and Norway and spread from there southward. Their move southward into continental Europe was aided by the Roman subjugation of the Celtic tribes that had once dominated Central Europe.

The term Germanic in the ancient historical context refers not only to language but also to culture and religion, as well.

It may be unfortunate that those early peoples are referred to as Germanic rather than Scandinavian, but our earliest written sources for them come from Roman writers (or Greeks in Roman employ), and that's what they called them.

Let me try to give some explanations: We had German immigration particularly from the medieval ages. With the moneyed Hansa merchants from around 1100 and particularly from 1300, then with some powerful German nobility families and last but not least with the more numerous German, Dutch and other continental Europeans that immigrated from around 1400. I guess these people had much power in the Scandinavian countries, both to enrich themselves and to write history and define what and who counted and what/who did not. Some of them had the money and power to control society and symbols, and they did for hundreds of years and to a certain degree still do.

True, but all that has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

I was speaking of Proto-Germanic and Germanic peoples, not about the various nationalities that speak Germanic languages after the rise of nation-states.

Then Norwegian and Swedish are categorized as Germanic languages, which may lead to some false correlations and over evaluation of a genetic connection between Germans and Scandinavians. Of course there are people with German heritage in Scandinavia and in Finland (particularly in the very southern parts), but largely Scandinavian and Finnish genes are not related to Germans. Some of the observed I1a may belong to descendants of Germans, but most bearers of hg I1a here do not. As I have pointed out earlier, the Saami are not Germans and they have high freqs with I1a.

You make my point. Germanic does not equal I1a, nor does I1a equal Germanic.

And German and Germanic are not the same thing. German is a subset of the larger Germanic family of languages and peoples. Besides, it is a non sequitur to speak of "Germans" in ancient times unless by that one means the same thing the Romans did: the members of a Germanic tribe. There was nothing like the Germany we know today until the late 19th century.

Scandinavians have not been monolithically I1a since the Middle Stone Age at least. Sweden has the highest proportion of I1a, but Norway is pretty nearly evenly proportioned between I1a, R1b, and R1a, with I1a having only a slight edge. In Denmark R1b is by far the largest single y-haplogroup.

BTW, there is definitely a genetic connection between the Germans and Scandinavians, just as there is a genetic connection between the Scandinavians and the people of any area in which the tribes that left Scandinavia beginning in the 3rd century settled.

Eki sent an URL with the following text from Family Tree DNA: “H2 is particularly common in Germany and Scotland.” This also supports what I was just telling. The German/Scandinavian genetic connection is overestimated.

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Heard of the Migration Period (in German, Die Voelkerwanderung)?

Beginning in the 3rd century A.D., many of the Germanic tribes of Scandinavia and North Germany began to move south, possibly due to the pressures of over population in their homeland. Those already in North Germany were the descendants of Scandinavians who had moved south earlier.

Those tribes would clash with the might of the Roman Empire, eventually playing a part in the destruction of that empire.

Where those Germanic tribes settled in sufficient numbers, Germanic languages took root and predominated, e.g., England, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria.

No matter where they went, the Germanic tribes - their culture, their language, their religion - all originated in Scandinavia (excluding Finland, which has not always been regarded as a Scandinavia country).

[Guest Close Wena]

Read the article of Rootsi et.al.

I1a is probably prehistoric here in Scandinavia.

[Stevo R1b-FGC36981 Find all posts View Profile Close Stevo]

Read the article of Rootsi et.al.

I1a is probably prehistoric here in Scandinavia.

I have read it. I agree. I1a is prehistoric in Scandinavia.

But so are R1b and R1a and probably N and some E3b and perhaps a few other spices.

From what I have read, the earliest prehistoric settlers in Scandinavia had gracile skeletons. Ultimately, sometime during the Paleolithic Period and extending into the Mesolithic, a people with heavier, Cro-Magnon type skeletons moved into Scandinavia from the southwest and mingled with the earlier inhabitants.

That's the forensic evidence.

[Eki Registered User Find all posts View Profile Close Eki]

Isn’t looks Autosomal in heritage?

Probably, but you inherit autosomal DNA from the same people you inherit Y-DNA and mtDNA.

For example, a man whose ancestors have been 90% N3, 10% I1a, 90% U5b and 10% H1b probably looks different than a man with 90% I1a, 10% N3, 90% H1b and 10% U5b. The percentages depend on where their ancestors have lived and which haplogroups have been majority and which have been minority in that area.

[Eki Registered User Find all posts View Profile Close Eki]

Heard of the Migration Period (in German, Die Voelkerwanderung)?

Beginning in the 3rd century A.D., many of the Germanic tribes of Scandinavia and North Germany began to move south, possibly due to the pressures of over population in their homeland. Those already in North Germany were the descendants of Scandinavians who had moved south earlier.

Those tribes would clash with the might of the Roman Empire, eventually playing a part in the destruction of that empire.

Where those Germanic tribes settled in sufficient numbers, Germanic languages took root and predominated, e.g., England, Germany, the ANetherlands, Switzerland, Austria.

No matter where they went, the Germanic tribes - their culture, their language, their religion - all originated in Scandinavia (excluding Finland, which has not always been regarded as a Scandinavia country).

Exactly. For example Rugians are said to have been from Rogaland in southern Norway, but they went south to Pomerania (between Poland and Germany), Hungary, Austria and Italy (I hope this Wikipedia article is fair and balanced enough for you ):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugians

Could they also have gone to Finland? I have mtDNA matches in Norway, Poland, Germany, Hungary and Switzerland. Could they be from the Rugians? And maybe my matches in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the United Kingdom could be from Norwegian women who settled there during the Viking times.

[Guest Close Wena]

I have read it. I agree. I1a is prehistoric in Scandinavia.
But so are R1b and R1a and probably N and some E3b and perhaps a few other spices.
From what I have read, the earliest prehistoric settlers in Scandinavia had gracile skeletons. Ultimately, sometime during the Paleolithic Period and extending into the Mesolithic, a people with heavier, Cro-Magnon type skeletons moved into Scandinavia from the southwest and mingled with the earlier inhabitants.That's the forensic evidence.

Stevo, I cannot comment on skeletons and categorizations of them or any other forensic evidence. What we are discussing here is haplogroups.

In what genetic research report do you find evidence for what you are saying here? How do you know that the earliest people were “gracile” and what does that word mean?

Knowledge of the Saami genetic patterns and migration history may give a clue about when the first people came here and when other groups of people came into the picture in these areas of northwestern Europe.

The Saami people are one of the very few people that can be traced to a particular geographical area in Europe from genetic markers/mutations.

Because the time estimations of Saami mtDNA mutations indicates that the Saami where isolated for thousands of years and because of that developed specific mtDNA motifs, there could not have been any other people with different haplogroups around for a very long time.

As I said yDNA I1a is frequent in Saami men and the results of many studies show that there are extreme frequencies of U5b and V among the Saami women.

Some of these Saami mtDNA motifs are: U5b1 (16144, 16189, 16270), U5b1b (16144, 16148, 16189, 16270) and V (16185, 16298). I1a and R most almost certainly must have specific Saami mutations that still are undiscovered or many of the Scandinavian and other I1a males are of Saami origin.

Together hg U5b and hg V makes up over 90% of the Saami mtDNA gene pool.

To repeat: Evidence connects the migration of the ancestors of the Saami people northwards from areas north of the Black Sea and from Iberia bringing with them particular haplogroups.

The study of Rootsi found that the specific Saami mtDNA haplogroups (U5b and V) are positively correlated with the occurrence of yDNA hg I1a at a very high significance level. Rootsi et.al said nothing about a correlation between Saami mtDNA and the yDNA hg R or hg N/N3.

From what I know about the migration patterns in Scandinavia, the very high occurrence of N3 among the Saami and Finnish males can be explained from newer migrations that also brought Asian mtDNA hg Z and hg D to the Saami and Finnish gene pool. Before those newer migrations the Saami possibly and predominantly had only hg U5b&V and yDNA I&R. As I have pointed out these newer N3 and mtDNA Z&D migrations most likely came from north-western Siberia, and this particularly changed the yDNA both the Saami and Finnish genetic pool dramatically. It is known that these immigrating Kven males very often married into Saami families, but more seldom the Kven women married Saami males. Therefore the frequencies of hg Z and hg D have remained low, while hg U5 and V remained extreme and it also explains why the frequency of yDNA N3 is so high in the present Saami pool. This is quite new history and much of it is registered genealogically between 1500-1800 in Sweden, Norway and Finland.

However, a very small frequency of old origin N3 seems to be present among the Saami. I will study the article of Ratio et.al in closer detail on hg N later on and then comment more on this, but it have to wait for a few days. http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471#T1

From what Noaide told there is a specific Eastern Saami N3a that differs from the Finnish on DYS389I and DYS389II that have no match YHRD.ORG, Dupuy et.al (2005) or in other studies:

Noaide, please correct if I cited you wrong.

This specific N3a must be older since it has a distinguishing mutation from the larger pool of N3 in Scandinavia and Finland.

Another support for the theory that hg N/N3 has its origin in newer immigrations of men from northwestern Siberia is that northwestern Siberian N/N3 match with the N/N3 men of Scandinavia and Finland (i.e. the Kvens) on a nuclear level, but not at a nuclear level with the N guys on the Balkans. This means that a more southeastern migration path is less likely for N/N3.

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