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  • #16
    Eki,

    You need to check out some literature about the Finns.

    National level (Tambets 2004)

    N3 = 63.2%
    I = 28.9%
    R1a = 7.9%

    Regional level, excluding Lappi (Raitio 2001)

    Northern Finns:

    N3 = 93%
    R1a = 7%

    Eastern Finns:

    N3 = 84%
    I = 15%
    (H26) = 1.6%

    Western Finns:

    N3 = 64%
    I = 32%
    R1a = 4.3%

    Karelians:

    I = 33%
    N3 = 43%
    R1a = 20%

    If your statement is to hold most of northern and eastern Finns must be defined as etnic Saami.


    Originally posted by Eki
    The way I see is that those N3 who chose a nomadic lifestyle became what we now know as Saami and those N3 who chose agriculture mixed with Scandinavian I1a and became what we now know as Finns.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Eki
      I did some googling and found this site which seems to think like I do:

      http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/04...-of-finns.html

      "The main finding is that the arrival of Finno-Ugric speakers (possessing haplogroup N3) was later followed by Scandinavian migrations mainly into western Finland, which reduced the frequency of N3 there, bringing especially haplogroup I1a. Thus, within Finland, western Finns are close to Swedes, and eastern Finns are close to their Finno-Ugric brethren. Interestingly, Finns seem to lack haplogroup R1b which is found among Germanic-speaking Scandinavians. Thus, the most probable sequence of events is the following:

      1. Movement of N3 into Finland
      2. Movement of I1a into western Finland
      3. Movement of R1b into Germanic Scandinavia

      This seems to support a picture in which early Germanics had a high frequency of I1a, early Finns had a high frequency of N3, and R1b in Scandinavia is the result of foreign settlers, probably continental Germans, Britons etc.

      Gene. 2006 Mar 18; [Epub ahead of print]"
      I don't think Dieneke's Blogspot is all that authoritative really. The source I cited above was written by a professor at the University of Alberta, Canada.

      I've read other sources on prehistoric Scandinavia that indicate that Cro-Magnons moved into Scandinavia during the Mesolithic Period at the latest and combined with the Combe-Capelle population already there.

      That is well before the Viking Age.

      I have no personal axe to grind. I don't even know my own haplogroup yet.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Stevo
        I don't think Dieneke's Blogspot is all that authoritative really. The source I cited above was written by a professor at the University of Alberta, Canada.
        Would Finnish Genome Center of University of Helsinki and Department of Medical Genetics of University of Turku look more authorative?

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

        Regional differences among the Finns: A Y-chromosomal perspective.

        Lappalainen T, Koivumaki S, Salmela E, Huoponen K, Sistonen P, Savontaus ML, Lahermo P.

        Finnish Genome Center, University of Helsinki, Finland; Department of Medical Genetics, University of Turku, Finland.

        Twenty-two Y-chromosomal markers, consisting of fourteen biallelic markers (YAP/DYS287, M170, M253, P37, M223, 12f2, M9, P43, Tat, 92R7, P36, SRY-1532, M17, P25) and eight STRs (DYS19, DYS385a/b, DYS388, DYS389I/II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393), were analyzed in 536 unrelated Finnish males from eastern and western subpopulations of Finland. The aim of the study was to analyze regional differences in genetic variation within the country, and to analyze the population history of the Finns. Our results gave further support to the existence of a sharp genetic border between eastern and western Finns so far observed exclusively in Y-chromosomal variation. Both biallelic haplogroup and STR haplotype networks showed bifurcated structures, and similar clustering was evident in haplogroup and haplotype frequencies and genetic distances. These results suggest that the western and eastern parts of the country have been subject to partly different population histories, which is also supported by earlier archaeological, historical and genetic data. It seems probable that early migrations from Finno-Ugric sources affected the whole country, whereas subsequent migrations from Scandinavia had an impact mainly on the western parts of the country. The contacts between Finland and neighboring Finno-Ugric, Scandinavian and Baltic regions are evident. However, there is no support for recent migrations from Siberia and Central Europe. Our results emphasize the importance of incorporating Y-chromosomal data to reveal the population substructure which is often left undetected in mitochondrial DNA variation. Early assumptions of the homogeneity of the isolated Finnish population have now proven to be false, which may also have implications for future association studies.

        PMID: 16644145 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
        Last edited by Eki; 7 May 2006, 01:14 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Noaide

          If your statement is to hold most of northern and eastern Finns must be defined as etnic Saami.
          No, because I think what makes Saami a Saami is their culture and lifestyle and those have been different from the rest of the Finns for hundreds or thousands of years. Furthermore, all Finns have the same genetic ingredients but in different proportions. That's why there might be physical differences between people from various parts of Finland. For example, it's a long known fact that people from Western Finland are in average slightly taller than people from Eastern Finland.

          Comment


          • #20
            Saami assimilated populations in Finland.

            From "Evidence for mtDNA admixture between the Finns and the Saami".

            Northern Ostrobothnia (PO)

            H 34%
            V 6%
            U 34%
            W 8%
            T 8%
            M 3%

            Kainuu (PK)

            H 37%
            V 9%
            U 36%
            W 10%
            M 6%

            Northern Savo (PS)

            H 53%
            V 6%
            U 17%
            I 7%
            W 6%
            J% 6&

            Central Ostrobothnia (PL)

            H 39%
            V 3%
            U 25%
            W 13%
            J 9%
            I 5%

            The Saami motif frequency are at 12.3% in the most northern provinces. 5% in central Finland. Kainuu og Northern Ostrobothnia have the highest frequency of the Saami motif outside todays cultural domain of the Saami culture and contains a considerable assimilated Saami population. If we assume the V observed also belong to the Saami (V seems to follow the Saami motif frequency) then Kainuu have over 20% assimilated Saami.


            Originally posted by Eki
            No, because I think what makes Saami a Saami is their culture and lifestyle and those have been different from the rest of the Finns for hundreds or thousands of years. Furthermore, all Finns have the same genetic ingredients but in different proportions. That's why there might be physical differences between people from various parts of Finland. For example, it's a long known fact that people from Western Finland are in average slightly taller than people from Eastern Finland.
            Last edited by Noaide; 7 May 2006, 06:08 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Eki
              Would Finnish Genome Center of University of Helsinki and Department of Medical Genetics of University of Turku look more authorative?

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

              Regional differences among the Finns: A Y-chromosomal perspective.

              Lappalainen T, Koivumaki S, Salmela E, Huoponen K, Sistonen P, Savontaus ML, Lahermo P.

              Finnish Genome Center, University of Helsinki, Finland; Department of Medical Genetics, University of Turku, Finland.

              Twenty-two Y-chromosomal markers, consisting of fourteen biallelic markers (YAP/DYS287, M170, M253, P37, M223, 12f2, M9, P43, Tat, 92R7, P36, SRY-1532, M17, P25) and eight STRs (DYS19, DYS385a/b, DYS388, DYS389I/II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393), were analyzed in 536 unrelated Finnish males from eastern and western subpopulations of Finland. The aim of the study was to analyze regional differences in genetic variation within the country, and to analyze the population history of the Finns. Our results gave further support to the existence of a sharp genetic border between eastern and western Finns so far observed exclusively in Y-chromosomal variation. Both biallelic haplogroup and STR haplotype networks showed bifurcated structures, and similar clustering was evident in haplogroup and haplotype frequencies and genetic distances. These results suggest that the western and eastern parts of the country have been subject to partly different population histories, which is also supported by earlier archaeological, historical and genetic data. It seems probable that early migrations from Finno-Ugric sources affected the whole country, whereas subsequent migrations from Scandinavia had an impact mainly on the western parts of the country. The contacts between Finland and neighboring Finno-Ugric, Scandinavian and Baltic regions are evident. However, there is no support for recent migrations from Siberia and Central Europe. Our results emphasize the importance of incorporating Y-chromosomal data to reveal the population substructure which is often left undetected in mitochondrial DNA variation. Early assumptions of the homogeneity of the isolated Finnish population have now proven to be false, which may also have implications for future association studies.

              PMID: 16644145 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

              That's very authoritative, but it does not address the early arrival of R1b in Scandinavia, where it is present in a sizeable proportion of the male population and no doubt in the ancestral lines even of those male Danes, Norwegians, and Swedes who themselves are not R1b.

              R1b forms a much larger proportion of the Y-DNA of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden than does N. In Denmark it is the single largest y-haplogroup. It would take a massive influx of foreigners during the historical period to account for such a high percentage of R1bs if R1b was indeed not in some sense native to Scandinavia. When did such a mass immigration take place?

              The anthropological evidence indicates that no later than the Mesolithic Period Cro-Magnon groups moved into Scandinavia from the southwest and combined with the Gravettian or Combe-Capelle people already there.

              The maps here provide a pretty good overview.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Stevo
                R1b forms a much larger proportion of the Y-DNA of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden than does N. In Denmark it is the single largest y-haplogroup. It would take a massive influx of foreigners during the historical period to account for such a high percentage of R1bs if R1b was indeed not in some sense native to Scandinavia. When did such a mass immigration take place?
                One theory might be that since the Black Death killed up to 2/3 of population in Norway, the land left vacant after them might have been taken by new immigrants from Denmark, Germany and the British Isles. History knows a mass immigration of Swedes into Finland in the 13th and 14th centuries. If a great number of those Swedes had been R1b, it would now be seen in Finland.

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=90327292

                [The black death in Norway]

                [Article in Norwegian]

                Oeding P.

                Avdeling for mikrobiologi og immunologi, Gades Institutt, Universitetet i Bergen.

                The old Icelandic annals tell that the Black Death came to Bergen, Norway, in 1349 with a ship from England. This was probably at the beginning of September. From Bergen the plague spread rapidly northwards and southwards along the coast and over land to Eastern Norway. The Black Death remained in Norway for approximately six months. The epidemic must have been started by infected black rats and rat fleas in the grain cargo of the ship. The account in the annals, and experiences from other countries, indicate that pneumonic plague was dominant in Bergen at the start of the epidemic. After that the Black Death must have spread partly as pneumonic plague but mainly probably as bubonic plague, transmitted via human fleas from person to person. The rats cannot have played a part except in the initial phase. The annals say that 2/3 of Norway's population died. This is probably a big exaggeration. The mortality in Norway can hardly have been more than 40-50%. Even this is high compared with an estimated mortality of approximately 33% in England and on the continent.

                Publication Types:

                * Historical Article


                PMID: 2197762 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
                Last edited by Eki; 7 May 2006, 03:57 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  It would take a huge influx of foreigners to bring Scandinavia up to the level of R1b seen there today, if R1b is not in some sense native to Scandinavia. Such a mass immigration doesn't seem likely.

                  Is there a record of waves of foreigners coming into Scandinavia? I don't recall one. In fact, I seem to recall that Scandinavia has always - at least in the historical period - tended to be an exporter of peoples rather than the other way around. Since the late 20th century Scandinavia has experienced an increased influx of immigrants, but not all of them are R1b nor could they account for the high proportion of R1b in the Scandinavian population.

                  It seems much more likely that R1b came into Scandinavia by the Middle Stone Age with the Cro-Magnons who are known to have migrated there. That would explain the high proportion of R1bs found there now.

                  The fact that Scandinavia shares a high level of mtDNA H with Western Europe is also indicative of some close links in that direction.
                  Last edited by Stevo; 7 May 2006, 04:13 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Eki
                    According to Icelandic sagas written around year 1200, Dukes of Normandy and Earls of Orkney Island descended from Kings of Kvenland who lived around year 200. Some believe Kvenland was in area of today's Finland. The only major Y-haplogroups in Finland are N (about 2/3) and I (about 1/3). If the sagas are true and it's true that Hg I arrived in Scandinavia and Finland from Normandy only after year 1000, then the Dukes of Normandy and Earls of Orkney must in all likelyhood have been of Hg N and haplogroup N would probably be relatively common in Normandy and Orkney.


                    I guess what you are saying Eki is that the Sagas cannot be true and I agree, because this sounds like a strange theory. The Sagas said nothing about haplogroups.

                    Read the article of Rootsi et.al (2004) it gives more valid information than any Saga on the migrations of genes.

                    "Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe"

                    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../41100.web.pdf

                    Siiri Rootsi et.al: "Nonetheless, the I1a data in Scandinavia are consistent with a post-LGM recolonization of northwestern Europe from Franco-Cantabria, whereas the expansion of I1b* in the east AdriaticNorth Pontic continuum probably reflects demographic processes that began in a refuge area located in that region."

                    What I find interesting is that I1a* is so frequent in both Saami and non-Saami men in Scandinavia, and that they seem to be comparable at a nuclear level. The Saami people have been isolated for long periods, i.e. there have been a low flow of genes to the Saami areas for thousands of years. Knowing this one should expect that the Saami I1a* had specific mutations, so either there are mutations yet to be discovered or the old Saami population may have settled a much larger area than today. The population in northern Europe has not always been dense and here we are talking thousands of years back and about hunter and gatherer peoples.

                    Siiri Rootsi et.al: ”Interestingly, subclade I1a shows a distribution similar to the second PC of the synthetic maps based on classical genetic markers (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994) and reveals a significantly positive correlation with mtDNA haplogroups V and U5b (r p 0.47; r p 0.60; significance level 0.999), which have been suggested to mark a postglacial population expansion from Iberia (Torroni et al. 1998, 2001; Tambets et al. 2004).”

                    This is also an interesting point since mtDNA U5b and V are observed in extreme frequencies among the Saami, together explaining over 90% of the mtDNA. The specific Saami U5b (16144, 16189, 16270) is time estimated to 15.000 to 10.000 years form present and that tells something of the time frames for yDNA I in Scandinavia as well. Some of the migrations of people with hg I took place prehistorically, but some very likely came with newer immigrations, possible from Normandy after year 1000, but also from other places. One cannot generalize one late immigration (e.g. from Normandy) to the whole pool of hg I that is observed here in Scandinavia.

                    You mention hg N. The high frequencies of N in Finland or among the Saami people are not necessarily a result of very old migrations. Kvens and Finns are not equivalents, the origin of the Kvens are eastern and possible from finno-ugric speaking Russians. There are for instance more Kvens in eastern and northern Finland than in southern and central Finland. Kvens may have brought N3 from northwestern Siberia in very recent history, like from 1500-1600 to the Gulf of Bothnia from where it later spread northwestwards around 1800 (for instance they may have come from the Komid culture that also speak a Finno-Ugric language. Google on pictures: Komid

                    http://www.helsinki.fi/~sugl_smi/kuv..._languages.jpg

                    The main registered immigration of Kvens to northern Norway took place between 1800-1860. A much older, but very low frequent migration of N3 (H16) are observed among the Saami according to an article of Ratio et.al(2001), but this subgroup is distinguishable at a nuclear level. http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471#T1


                    Mentioning the Viking Sagas there are other more interesting theories around, take a look at the following URL and genetic maps. The Viking may have come from a much earlier Viking culture in the Russia, Azer or Turk (Anatolia) areas around 1500 years ago.

                    Archaeological excavations of an old Viking culture in Azov. Items are preserved at the Azov Regional Museum:
                    http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...storfjell.html


                    http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

                    What you can see at this maps are for instance that yDNA Q is found both in Turkey and in southern Norway as the only places in Europe. Both populations have relatively high frequencies of R1b and I. Comparing the frequencies of mtDNA H is also interesting, since some studies have shown a higher frequency of hg H in central Turkey than in Norway. I do not know if these haplogroups match on a microlevel, but I find this theory more interesting and it also fits with the Snorre Saga. This theory has some more support than the one you represented, but is very controversial and criticized hare in Norway as you can imagine.

                    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/...in319524.shtml

                    ________________________
                    Last edited by ; 7 May 2006, 05:59 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Stevo
                      It would take a huge influx of foreigners to bring Scandinavia up to the level of R1b seen there today, if R1b is not in some sense native to Scandinavia. Such a mass immigration doesn't seem likely.

                      Is there a record of waves of foreigners coming into Scandinavia? I don't recall one.
                      Who says it must have happened in a short time period? It could have happened slowly for example, let's say between 1000-1500, when the historical sources were scarce. In most of Scandinavia, church records start from the 17th or 18th century and before that most people were born and died without their name ever been put on paper. In medieval times, Scandinavia was for example part of Hansa trade:

                      http://members.bellatlantic.net/~baronfum/hansa.html

                      It's known that German merchants were even in Finland at that time, and Finland was periphery, so their number in southern Norway and southern Sweden must have been much higher.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Wena
                        I guess what you are saying Eki is that the Sagas cannot be true and I agree, because this sounds like a strange theory. The Sagas said nothing about haplogroups.


                        You mention hg N. The high frequencies of N in Finland or among the Saami people are not necessarily a result of very old migrations. Kvens and Finns are not equivalents, the origin of the Kvens are eastern and possible from finno-ugric speaking Russians. There are for instance more Kvens in eastern and northern Finland than in southern and central Finland. Kvens may have brought N3 from northwestern Siberia in very recent history, like from 1500-1600 to the Gulf of Bothnia from where it later spread northwestwards around 1800 (for instance they may have come from the Komid culture that also speak a Finno-Ugric language. Google on pictures: Komid

                        http://www.helsinki.fi/~sugl_smi/kuv..._languages.jpg

                        The main registered immigration of Kvens to northern Norway took place between 1800-1860. A much older, but very low frequent migration of N3 (H16) are observed among the Saami according to an article of Ratio et.al(2001), but this subgroup is distinguishable at a nuclear level. http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471#T1
                        You are talking about Kvens of today. Nobody knows who the Kvens originally were and where Kvenland was 1500 years ago. They could have been Germanic Scandinavians and Kvenland could have extended for example to both sides of Gulf of Bothnia and even northern Norway. I've even seen theories that say the Kvens might have been fur traders from western Finland and their leaders might have been Frankish or Frisian.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I think these two HaploMaps of I1a and R1b imply that I1a arrived in Scandinavia first. The maps also imply that R1b spread to south-western Scandinavia from the Netherlands, British Isles or Germany, and I1a spread from Trondheim region (central Norway).

                          http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...b_large_RG.jpg

                          http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...a_large_RG.jpg

                          I also notice a narrow strip of R1b on the west coast of Finland, which even today is still largely Swedish speaking. I think that means the Swedish immigrants of the 13th and 14th centuries did have some R1b in them.
                          Last edited by Eki; 8 May 2006, 01:29 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            One possibility for I1a being so common in central Norway could also be that they were "squeezed" between the R1bs coming from south and N3s coming from north:

                            http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...N_large_RG.jpg

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Eki
                              You are talking about Kvens of today. Nobody knows who the Kvens originally were and where Kvenland was 1500 years ago. They could have been Germanic Scandinavians and Kvenland could have extended for example to both sides of Gulf of Bothnia and even northern Norway. I've even seen theories that say the Kvens might have been fur traders from western Finland and their leaders might have been Frankish or Frisian.

                              Eki, I really dislike grandiose Kven crusader stories.

                              When researchers find that hg I1a is very old in Scandinavia, there is a greater likelihood for this to be true than any personal belief. Especially when the results and conclusions of many researchers have findings that supports such a theory.

                              What we know is that the Saami people have inhabited Scandinavia much longer than any other group, and it is also known that they have a high frequency of yDNA hg I1a. People that were bearers of these hg I1a genes seem to have migrated to the Saami areas when the ice started to melt and they likely came with mtDNA hg U5 and hg V.

                              Very much later the Kvens came into the picture when they migrated from northwestern Siberia. A few Kvens from Siberia seems to have migrated into the Saami areas from early on, they have a distinguishable subgroup of hg N3 (H16). But it was in recent history that the greater migration waves of the Kvens came from the east and also brought with them some mtDNA hg D and hg Z to the Saami gene pool. Therefore you find more Kven genes in the areas of their migration path into The Gulf of Bothnia, from Siberia to Karelia and in Finland. And much later in Norway. I find this very interesting, because I also have Kven ancestors.

                              It is well known that the Saami have been named “Finns” for longer than written history goes, even though not all people that populate Finland today descends from the Saami. The original areas of the Saami (that is known to have been isolated for thousands of years) were large, stretching from today’s Estonia, Karelia, Kola Peninsula, Finland and the whole Scandinavian Peninsula. Their land was not called Finland, but it might have been called Kvenland. So why postulate that strangers populated the area when the Saami people had populated these land areas for thousand and thousands of years, long before anyone started to draw maps and categorize?

                              My hope is that genetic studies like the Genographic Project will teach us that history happened before someone wrote it down.

                              ___________________________

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Wena
                                Eki, I really dislike grandiose Kven crusader stories.

                                When researchers find that hg I1a is very old in Scandinavia, there is a greater likelihood for this to be true than any personal belief. Especially when the results and conclusions of many researchers have findings that supports such a theory.
                                What I was saying was that Kvens might have been Germanic Scandinavians of haplogroup I1a before Finno-Ugric mostly of hg N3 moved to the same area in the 1800s and became to be known as Kvens. If researchers find that hg I1a is very old in northern and central Scandinavia it supports that theory, not debunk it. It could also better explain the sagas of Norwegian kings descending from the kings of Kvenland. Don't you think people are more likely to accept a king of their own tribe (I1a) than from a strange tribe (N3)?
                                Last edited by Eki; 8 May 2006, 03:59 AM.

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