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  • I1a Not From Scandinavia?

    Wikipedia claims that I1a did not originate from Scandinavia, as previously believed, but spread from Normandy within the last 1000 years. Weren't Normans descendants of Norwegian Vikings? And why is the haplogroup so common in Iceland that was settled more than 1000 years ago? I don't think the haplomap of I1a support this "Out of Normandy" theory either.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29

    "Some subclades of I, such as I1a, were previously believed to be also of Scandinavian populations. However, recent research done by Scandinavian researchers has shown this assumption to be false. I1a seems to be recently, (within the last 1000 years), from Normandy and to be tracable to the Anglo-Saxon migrations North from Southern Europe. Its true source is still not known. "

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eki
    Wikipedia claims that I1a did not originate from Scandinavia, as previously believed, but spread from Normandy within the last 1000 years.
    Hi Eki, I would not pay much attention of what is written in Wikipedia, there are no filtering of information there, so whoever can write whatever in there. There is probably more valid information on haplogroup I1a around and in valid sources. Good Luck!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Wena
      Hi Eki, I would not pay much attention of what is written in Wikipedia, there are no filtering of information there, so whoever can write whatever in there. There is probably more valid information on haplogroup I1a around and in valid sources. Good Luck!
      I agree completely.

      I have found Wikipedia to be unreliable. The articles there are not always correct in all their particulars and often reflect the agenda of the contributor.

      Comment


      • #4
        Regardless of the speculations advanced in the Wikipedia article, there is enough scientific evidence to cast doubt on the idea that I1a might have originated in Scandinavia, which - after all - was buried under an ice shelf long after the supposed coalescence time for I1a.

        Check Rootsi et al's article "Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe" (2004), which you find in the FTDNA Library.

        The authors state the following:
        "Subclade I1a accounts for most of Hg I in Scandinavia, with a rapidly decreasing frequency towards both the East European Plain and the Atlantic fringe, but microsatellite diversity reveals that France could be the source region of the early spread of both I1a and the less common I1c."

        Looking at haplogroup frequency in total numbers, we will find that 15% Hg I1a in France corresponds to a number of 9.5 million people, in France alone. Say another 20% Hg I1a in Germany, that would be another 16.5 million on the continent. In Norway, on the other hand, a frequency of 40% for Hg I1a would correspond to a total number of 1.85 million people. It seems a bit unrealistic that Scandinavia should have exported such an amount of Hg I1a while at the same time retaining such a low population size.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by anka
          Regardless of the speculations advanced in the Wikipedia article, there is enough scientific evidence to cast doubt on the idea that I1a might have originated in Scandinavia, which - after all - was buried under an ice shelf long after the supposed coalescence time for I1a.

          Check Rootsi et al's article "Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe" (2004), which you find in the FTDNA Library.

          The authors state the following:
          "Subclade I1a accounts for most of Hg I in Scandinavia, with a rapidly decreasing frequency towards both the East European Plain and the Atlantic fringe, but microsatellite diversity reveals that France could be the source region of the early spread of both I1a and the less common I1c."

          Looking at haplogroup frequency in total numbers, we will find that 15% Hg I1a in France corresponds to a number of 9.5 million people, in France alone. Say another 20% Hg I1a in Germany, that would be another 16.5 million on the continent. In Norway, on the other hand, a frequency of 40% for Hg I1a would correspond to a total number of 1.85 million people. It seems a bit unrealistic that Scandinavia should have exported such an amount of Hg I1a while at the same time retaining such a low population size.
          I'm sure everybody understands I1a wasn't probably "born" in Scandinavia but came from the south, but to claim it spread from Normandy to Scandinavia within the last 1000 years seems odd. I'm sure written history and archeology would have noticed a sudden 40% increase of population in Scandinavia in such recent times.

          Comment


          • #6
            According to Icelandic sagas written around year 1200, Dukes of Normandy and Earls of Orkney Island descended from Kings of Kvenland who lived around year 200. Some believe Kvenland was in area of today's Finland. The only major Y-haplogroups in Finland are N (about 2/3) and I (about 1/3). If the sagas are true and it's true that Hg I arrived in Scandinavia and Finland from Normandy only after year 1000, then the Dukes of Normandy and Earls of Orkney must in all likelyhood have been of Hg N and haplogroup N would probably be relatively common in Normandy and Orkney.

            http://www.aritek.com/hartgen/htm/of-kvenland.htm

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            • #7
              My understanding is that Hrolf the Ganger (aka Rollo), the Viking founder of the Norman dynasty, was the son of Rognvald, the Jarl of Moer in Norway, who lived during the reign of King Harald Fairhair (Jones, Gwyn; A History of the Vikings; Oxford University Press, 1984; pp. 90-92; and Lloyd, Alan; The Making of the King:1066; New York: Holt, Rhinehart & Winston, 1966; p. 75.)

              Anyway, I saw something over on Rootsweb (if I recall correctly) to the effect that the established paper trail patrilineal descendants of William the Conqueror (the descendant of Rognvald and his son Hrolf) are all R1bs.
              Last edited by Stevo; 5 May 2006, 06:42 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Stevo
                My understanding is that Hrolf the Ganger (aka Rollo), the Viking founder of the Norman dynasty, was the son of Rognvald, the Jarl of Moer in Norway, who lived during the reign of King Harald Fairhair (Jones, Gwyn; A History of the Vikings; Oxford University Press, 1984; pp. 90-92; and Lloyd, Alan; The Making of the King:1066; New York: Holt, Rhinehart & Winston, 1966; p. 75.)

                Anyway, I saw something over on Rootsweb (if I recall correctly) to the effect that the established paper trail patrilineal descendants of William the Conqueror (the descendant of Rognvald and his son Hrolf) are all R1bs.
                Of course, I don't know how reliable that info on the descendants of William the Conqueror is.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stevo
                  My understanding is that Hrolf the Ganger (aka Rollo), the Viking founder of the Norman dynasty, was the son of Rognvald, the Jarl of Moer in Norway, who lived during the reign of King Harald Fairhair (Jones, Gwyn; A History of the Vikings; Oxford University Press, 1984; pp. 90-92; and Lloyd, Alan; The Making of the King:1066; New York: Holt, Rhinehart & Winston, 1966; p. 75.)

                  Anyway, I saw something over on Rootsweb (if I recall correctly) to the effect that the established paper trail patrilineal descendants of William the Conqueror (the descendant of Rognvald and his son Hrolf) are all R1bs.
                  In YSearch is an I1a1 entry saying:

                  "This entry provides the hypothetical Y-DNA profile for Gommeri Ingvarsson, son of Ingvar Ragnarsson. Gommeri Ingvarsson has three sons, including: - Roger de Monte Gummeri - Bernardus (Danus) Monte Gommeri, Regent of Normandy, aka Bernard "the Dane" de Harcourt - Sihtric de Monte Gommeri, Viking chief A modal formed from a merge of several ancient family branches. Mostly, the profiles used to construct the modal are associated with descendents of Roger de Monte Gummeri and Bernard de Harcourt. The modals for each branch compare extremely well. Genetic distance from the modal for each family branch is as follows: Berry: 4, 25 markers (2-step mutation on DYS389-2) Montgomery: 1, 37 markers Malleret: 1, 25 markers Harris: 3, 37 markers Hamilton: 2, 37 markers Related families include Montgomery, Harcourt, Lehericy, Harris, Malet, Barry, Pomeroy, Hamilton and Powers. Other related families are the descendents of Rollo.
                  "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    By citing the Rootsi et al. article I have by no means intended to suggest that the entry of Hg I into Scandinavia is of a recent age, far from it. Rootsi et al speak explicitly about PREHISTORIC migrations, i. e. the repopulation of Europe after the LGM.

                    To my understanding, R1b and I1a were the predominant haplogroups in Western Europe after the LGM, and they quickly spread northwards as the ice receded.

                    It is by no means settled yet that S France/Iberia was the only ice age refugium in Western Europe. There might as well have been another refuge in Southern Central Europe (west of the Balkan!) which contained far more I1a than R1b. People from this refuge might have moved straight north, accounting for the amount of I1a in Germany and Scandinavia.

                    Once populated, I believe that the outlier position of Scandinavia left it relatively unaffected by the later Neolithic migrations from the Near East. (Apart from the R1a1 migration of course, which has yet to be dated.) This explains why the percentage of I1a is so high in Scandinavia.

                    As has been noted in this thread, the Normandy theory can quite probably be ruled out. Apart from the fact that such a massive invasion certainly would have been noticed by historical scribes, SNP-studies provide no evidence for historical migrations if they are not corroborated by STR-data.

                    SNP-studies on the Viking impact on Britain have so far been unable to differentiate between prehistoric migrations of hg I into Britain, the advent of the Celts, the advent of the Anglo-Saxons, and the advent of the Vikings. At the SNP level, these populations are indistinguishable. So I cannot imagine how it suddenly should be possible to identify Normans using SNP-data.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I doubt that Rollo was R1b also because if R1b were an old haplogroup in Scandinavia, it would probably have spread also to Finland just like Hg I and even R1a did. I think it's more likely that R1b arrived in Scandinavia in historic times within the last 1000 years.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by anka
                        SNP-studies on the Viking impact on Britain have so far been unable to differentiate between prehistoric migrations of hg I into Britain, the advent of the Celts, the advent of the Anglo-Saxons, and the advent of the Vikings. At the SNP level, these populations are indistinguishable. So I cannot imagine how it suddenly should be possible to identify Normans using SNP-data.
                        I suspect those researchers used Norman genealogical data and DNA but were unaware of history of Normandy and Scandinavia. Unlike Scandinavians, Normans used surnames already in the 11th century.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eki
                          I doubt that Rollo was R1b also because if R1b were an old haplogroup in Scandinavia, it would probably have spread also to Finland just like Hg I and even R1a did. I think it's more likely that R1b arrived in Scandinavia in historic times within the last 1000 years.
                          I think you may be mistaken about the age of R1b in Scandinavia. From what I have read of prehistoric Scandinavia, during the Paleolithic period and into the Mesolithic there was a movement of Cro-Magnons into the region, where they combined with the earlier Combe-Capelle, Gravettian people.

                          The likelihood is that R1as and Ns were the later arrivals, since the sources I have read say that there were no serious incursions into Scandinavia following the Mesolithic period (for example, Owen, Francis; The Germanic People:Their Origin & Culture; New York: Barnes and Noble, 1993; pp. 11-26).

                          It is likely that Scandinavia has been a mixed Y-DNA bag since long before human history came to be written down.

                          BTW, I believe there is a fairly sizeable R1b presence in Finland, although not as large as in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway.
                          Last edited by Stevo; 6 May 2006, 09:08 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stevo
                            I think you may be mistaken about the age of R1b in Scandinavia. From what I have read of prehistoric Scandinavia, during the Paleolithic period and into the Mesolithic there was a movement of Cro-Magnons into the region, where they combined with the earlier Combe-Capelle, Gravettian people.

                            The likelihood is that R1as and Ns were the later arrivals, since the sources I have read say that there were no serious incursions into Scandinavia following the Mesolithic period (for example, Owen, Francis; The Germanic People:Their Origin & Culture; New York: Barnes and Noble, 1993; pp. 11-26).

                            It is likely that Scandinavia has been a mixed Y-DNA bag since long before human history came to be written down.

                            BTW, I believe there is a fairly sizeable R1b presence in Finland, although not as large as in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway.
                            I did some googling and found this site which seems to think like I do:

                            http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/04...-of-finns.html

                            "The main finding is that the arrival of Finno-Ugric speakers (possessing haplogroup N3) was later followed by Scandinavian migrations mainly into western Finland, which reduced the frequency of N3 there, bringing especially haplogroup I1a. Thus, within Finland, western Finns are close to Swedes, and eastern Finns are close to their Finno-Ugric brethren. Interestingly, Finns seem to lack haplogroup R1b which is found among Germanic-speaking Scandinavians. Thus, the most probable sequence of events is the following:

                            1. Movement of N3 into Finland
                            2. Movement of I1a into western Finland
                            3. Movement of R1b into Germanic Scandinavia

                            This seems to support a picture in which early Germanics had a high frequency of I1a, early Finns had a high frequency of N3, and R1b in Scandinavia is the result of foreign settlers, probably continental Germans, Britons etc.

                            Gene. 2006 Mar 18; [Epub ahead of print]"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The way I see is that those N3 who chose a nomadic lifestyle became what we now know as Saami and those N3 who chose agriculture mixed with Scandinavian I1a and became what we now know as Finns.

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