Basques and E3b

[LeoLoS]

From http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...p1023-1034.pdf
you find 2.1% of E3b-M81 out of 48 researched Spanish Basques (that means one person).

From http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf you find 3.6% E3b-M81 out of 55 researched Spanish Basques (that means two persons)

From http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm you find the following text:
However, another cluster of E-M78, known as the “delta cluster,” appears to have migrated to Europe from North Africa or the Middle East with a distinctive haplotype already formed (Cruciani et al. 2004). It is found in low frequency among Spanish, French, Basque and Italian groups (Cruciani et al. 2004). In North Africa, it is also prevalent among Moroccan Arab, Berber and Egyptian groups

I understood the main haplogroup for the basques is R1b, but there seems to be some small percent of E3b - M81 and even M78 delta cluster according to above links. French basques seem to lack haplogroup E3b. Does someone know how E3b entered the basques genepool, by berbers or sephards or someone else? And why do French Basques lack E3b?

Somewhere I read that The Genographic project should research the Basques carefully. If so, when will we see some results?

Leo

[Stevo]

Interesting questions, Leo.

The Basques are fascinating and somewhat mysterious, aren't they?

[Victor]

Pasiegos and E3b

Leo,

The study of the Basque people is best understood in the context of the whole region. I recommend you read the following study for some interesting perspectives:

http://grupos.unican.es/acanto/aep/B...-Hum-Genet.pdf

Victor

[M.O'Connor]

Where were the Basques hiding when the Romans were in town?
Were Basques living and hiding in the mountains?
Other persecuted people could have joined up with the Basque people over time.

These are my R1B1... 12/12 sequence matches under "Ethnic Origins". I seem to have a higher percentage of 12/12 matches in France.
(Although they could mostly or all belong to one family name?)
( just an observation)

Canary Islands (40).............................................M atches...1

China (631) Chinese Muslim (Central Asian Descent)..Matches...1

England (7821)............................................ .......Matches...5

France (904)............................................. .........Matches...8

Germany (3366)............................................ ......Matches...1

Greece (211)............................................. .........Matches...1

Ireland (4017)............................................ ........Matches...3

Italy (770)............................................. ............Matches...1

Scotland (3297)............................................ ......Matches...2

Spain (794) Andalusia......................................... ..Matches...1

Switzerland (417)............................................. ....Matches..2

United Kingdom (2628)..........................................Ma tches..2

[Stevo]

Didn't the Basques invent the Bota Bag?

That makes them all right with me!

[M.O'Connor]

I believe they invented the french Hennwey.

[Stevo]

I believe they invented the french Hennwey.

Okay . . . just to make you happy:

What's a French Hennwey?

[LeoLoS]

Leo,

The study of the Basque people is best understood in the context of the whole region. I recommend you read the following study for some interesting perspectives:

http://grupos.unican.es/acanto/aep/B...-Hum-Genet.pdf

Victor

Thank you Victor for an interesting site. First time I heard of Pasiegos, Lebaniegos or Cantabrians.

Cantabria on the map is situated between Asturia and (Spanish) Basque country. Both Asturia and Basque country have 2% of M81, as Cantabrians overall have 17% of M81, Pasiegos as much as 24% of M81.
The conclusion should be that the neighbours got their equalent 2% from the Cantabrians, but the lack of M81 by Lebaniegos makes it a bit mixed up. Any good explanation for that Victor? Are the Lebaniegos situated at the borders to Asturia, with no other Cantabrians between them? (the map is not so clear) Pasiegos at the map seems to be pretty close to Basque country.

The third theory of the origin of Pasiegos from the site above is:
iii) Pasiegos are descendants of Jews and Moors that took refuge in the area after their expulsion from Christian communities. In favour of this hypothesis is the high frequency found in a small Pasiego sample of a Y-chromosome haplogroup with a likely North African Berber origin (Scozzari et al.2001).

If Basques got their 2% of M81 from the Cantabrians, most likely from the Pasiegos, this would then consequently means that E3b Basques are the desendants of Jews and Moors.

One thing that I noticed when you look at haplogroup tests is that the number of tested persons is pretty low, for instance Basques in the above test were 45 persons. Is this enough, shouldn't you have some hundreds or even one thousand of people tested belonging to one ethnic group (like the Basques) to be sure to catch all possible haplogroups that they consist of?

Leo

[Stevo]

I totally agree with you about the number of subjects tested in some of these studies, Leo. Bigger studies would raise the confidence level.

I don't remember where I read this, but I read something to the effect that at one time the Basques were a matrilocal society, meaning that the groom would go live with the bride's family. Most other societies are patrilocal, which is why individual mtDNA groups are more widely spread than Y-DNA groups.

The point is that, if various refugees - Jews or Moors or both - sought refuge with the Basques and ultimately married Basque women, the practice of matrilocalism would be a further incentive to assimilation to Basque culture and the introduction of new male lines.

[LeoLoS]

The more you read sientific texts, the more you get confused. In the end of the same text (ought to read everything carefully before one posts anything) they state:

For the African input, it is tempting to propose an asymmetric sexual contribution in which males predominate. Although it could be true, this supposition should be regarded with caution, since the majority of North African mtDNA lineages are also present in Europe (Rando et al. 1998). There
are, currently, two theories to explain this not negligible African input on the Iberian peninsula. For some, it is mainly the result of the historic Islamic occupation (Bosch et al. 2001; Pereira et al. 2000), whereas others, without totally denying this possibility, favour the bulk of this influence as having prehistoric roots (Gomez-Casado et al. 2000; Gonzalez et al. 2003). If the sexual asymmetry could be demonstrated the former hypothesis would be strengthened. In any case, the fact that this African influence similarly affects other Cantabrians and the lack of assigned Near East lineages in Pasiegos, rules out the hypothesis that this isolate was specifically founded by Moorish and Jewish refugees.

There really doesn't seem to be any absolute answers in DNA genealogy

[Victor]

A couple of things, Leo. There are some absolutes in DNA genealogy, like SNP mutations which define haplogroups and STR marker values of our Y chromosomes. Where there are no absolutes is in the phylogeography which is mostly based on assumptions and interpretations of very scarce historical, archeological and anthropological information.

Regarding the limited size of genetic samples in practically all of the population genetics studies that are available, the samplings or the participants' selection supposedly follow statistically valid methodologies which assure statistically valid results. Of course, when dealing with statistics and their conclusions we know that we're not dealing with absolute truths but scientific approximations to truth. It is possible that scientific conclusions can be wrong too, either because inadvertent errors or because plain and deliberate manipulation of the numbers.

As far as E3b in Europe goes, for me one of the fundamental questions is when, how, and from where did it get there. As several studies seem to conclude, there must have been multiple migratory events from North East Africa and from the Middle East at least as early as the Neolithic and in the intervening millenia, that spread this Y lineage throughout Europe. Regarding the presence of E3b in the Cantabrian region in particular and North Iberia in general, it seems to me that the authors of the quoted article favor one of the several theories they propose, namely, the pre-historic origin of E3b, given the absence or lack of other assigned Near East lineages (like J), which should be present if we were dealing with descendants of Jews and Moors. I lean to the same conclusion.

Most likely there isn't a single explanation and E3bs in Europe must have multiple origins and ages so no valid generalizations can be applied in this case. We have to correlate our own genealogical and historical findings to our genetic test results and then derive our own conclusions. I'm still in the process of collecting the pieces of this big puzzle, as I'm sure most of us are, and I see a long road ahead.

Victor

[M.O'Connor]

Okay . . . just to make you happy:

What's a French Hennwey?

About 2 pounds...same as a canadian hen.

[LeoLoS]

I totally agree with you about the number of subjects tested in some of these studies, Leo. Bigger studies would raise the confidence level.

Well, I also made and second error, which seems to confirm my question and your statement.
The first link http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...p1023-1034.pdf has 2.1% Spanish E3b-M81 Basques and 0% French Basques.

The second link http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf has 3.6% E3b-M81 Spanish Basques and 6.3% E3b-M78 (delta) French Basques.

I only looked at the first link and made my conclusion of the lack of E3b by French Basques. Maybe this is due to the not too big number of subjects tested. I hope I am not doing my third wrong conclusion this time.

Leo

[Stevo]

Well, I also made and second error, which seems to confirm my question and your statement.
The first link http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...p1023-1034.pdf has 2.1% Spanish E3b-M81 Basques and 0% French Basques.

The second link http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf has 3.6% E3b-M81 Spanish Basques and 6.3% E3b-M78 (delta) French Basques.

I only looked at the first link and made my conclusion of the lack of E3b by French Basques. Maybe this is due to the not too big number of subjects tested. I hope I am not doing my third wrong conclusion this time.

Leo

Wow! That's quite a sudden increase in the number of E3b French Basques!

[Stevo]

About 2 pounds...same as a canadian hen.

I've heard they both taste like chicken.