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  • Interesting Site!

    here's a intriguing site that develops a theory i have never heard before. of interest to all of us with european origins.

    I-M26.blogspot.com

  • #2
    The map on the blog's home page seems a bit misleading to me. The Rootsi, et al, report on haplogroup I that is linked from there speaks of "the virtual absence in Scandinavia" of haplogroup I1b, yet southern Sweden is shaded in orange as if I1b2 were well represented there.

    The I1b2 map in Figure 1 (Map F) of the Rootsi, et al paper seems to me to unravel the mystery. It shows I1b2 focused on Sardinia and the western Mediterranean, spreading to the west into the Pyrenees (Basque country) and the rest of Spain, to the northwest into the British Isles, and to the south into the north African littoral.

    Rootsi postulates a place of origin for I1b2 as the Iberian peninsula or southern France, which makes a great deal of sense given what Map F shows.

    Attempting to tie all European megaliths to I1b2 mariners seems a bit of a stretch to me. There are important typological differences between megaliths in various parts of Europe and the world and physical as well as cultural differences between the peoples associated with them.

    For example, the British and Iberian megaliths differ in structure from those in Scandinavia. The skeletal remains associated with the former are short in stature and dolichocephalic (longheaded). Historians and anthropologists have traditionally referred to them as "Mediterranean" (which would seem to suit the I1b2 homeland postulated by Rootsi, et al). The megaliths in Scandinavia are part of what is called the Northern European Megalithic culture. Its skeletal remains are thought to be Nordic: tall, with dolichocephalic to mesocephalic skulls.

    Thus it makes sense, perhaps, to associate the megaliths on the Iberian Peninsula and in Britain with I1b2s, but not those to the northeast, in Scandinavia, where I1b2 is "virtually absent."

    Of course, anything is possible, and it is well to keep an open mind.
    Last edited by Stevo; 7 April 2006, 11:09 AM.

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    • #3
      I wonder what all the R1B's were doing back then? i guess we were still in the trees or something?
      Last edited by M.O'Connor; 14 April 2006, 09:42 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by M.O'Connor
        I wonder what all the R1B's were doing back then? i guess we were still in the trees or something?
        R1bs are fascinating to me (and I don't yet know my own haplogroup). Obviously the progenitors of that haplogroup were wildly successful in Western and Northern Europe.

        I wonder where the scientists who believe that R1b has pretty much always been where it is now (since the LGM anyway) got that idea. Apparently they don't have any Y-DNA from Cro-Magnon bones to confirm it.

        I know others will disagree with me, but I have the sneaking suspicion that R means Indo-European (R1b in the West, R1a in the East). Of course that means either that Proto-IE is much older than currently reckoned or that R1bs spread to the west much later than now believed.

        Of course, I could be wrong.

        But I don't think the spread of language is that easily accomplished, not without sufficient motivation: overwhelming force and coercion, absolute economic necessity, or replacement of population (of the male population at least), or a combination of any two or all three of them.

        So how was Indo-European spread in the West if not by native R1b speakers of it?
        Last edited by Stevo; 15 April 2006, 10:49 AM.

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        • #5
          Hi Stevo

          I found this page. It is short and to the point on some language questions. Although some others would have different opinions, it is something to think on.
          http://community.middlebury.edu/~har...ackground.html

          aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaa

          There was also supposedly Tocharian which is an extinct Indo-European language in the far east.

          http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm#indo
          Last edited by M.O'Connor; 30 April 2006, 03:18 AM.

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          • #6
            Where is YCCHgI Lately?

            Where is our thread's originator these days?

            Haven't seen him or NormanGalloway around lately.

            What happened to them?

            They are both quite interesting and intelligent.

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            • #7
              Correction

              Originally posted by Stevo
              Where is our thread's originator these days?

              Haven't seen him or NormanGalloway around lately.

              What happened to them?

              They are both quite interesting and intelligent.
              I meant NormanGalway, not Galloway.

              Sorry, Norman.

              Where have you gone anyway?

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              • #8
                still here, waiting for test results...

                I have not had my deep clade result yet, even though I am part of batch 140, so I "don't have a dog" in any of these fights/arguments/discussions.

                At least beyond HG I.

                However, thanks for the compliment! Very kind.

                I seem to be part of the I group centered in the British Isles, which is where most of my matches are.

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                • #9
                  correction

                  I1b in the British Isles...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NormanGalway
                    I have not had my deep clade result yet, even though I am part of batch 140, so I "don't have a dog" in any of these fights/arguments/discussions.

                    At least beyond HG I.

                    However, thanks for the compliment! Very kind.

                    I seem to be part of the I group centered in the British Isles, which is where most of my matches are.
                    You are very welcome.

                    I'm relieved to see you haven't left us. I enjoy your posts.

                    I'm still waiting for my first results of any kind (Batch 147 - due May 19).

                    Still a man without a haplogroup.

                    Talk about not having a dog in these discussions!

                    I wonder where YCCHgI has gone.

                    I was learning a lot from you and him.

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                    • #11
                      Anglo-Saxon maybe???

                      Originally posted by NormanGalway
                      I1b in the British Isles...
                      I saw something somewhere recently by Ken Nordtvedt to the effect that I1b in Britain probably came in with the Anglo-Saxons.

                      Have you heard that, too?

                      I seem to recall he said it was found in quantity in NW Germany, which is part of the old Saxon stomping grounds.

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                      • #12
                        I've provided this link before. Mabe this guy is I1B ? or RiB ?

                        Someone who grew up in the Alps area near Switzerland?..or a country near......4300 years ago.

                        He Migrated to England.

                        A grave near his contained someone who grew up in england and shared a similar skeletal deformity as him. thereby assuming it to be his son.

                        I wonder what Y haplo group(s) they might have been? did R1B cross the Alps from Italy? Was switzerland majority R1B 4000 years ago? who knows..maybe I1B?
                        http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects...ry/archer.html
                        Last edited by M.O'Connor; 12 May 2006, 11:09 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by M.O'Connor
                          I've provided this link before. Mabe this guy is I1B ? or RiB ?

                          Someone who grew up in the Alps area near Switzerland?..or a country near......4300 years ago.

                          He Migrated to England.

                          A grave near his contained someone who grew up in england and shared a similar skeletal deformity as him. thereby assuming it to be his son.

                          I wonder what Y haplo group(s) they might have been? did R1B cross the Alps from Italy? Was switzerland majority R1B 4000 years ago? who knows..maybe I1B?
                          http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects...ry/archer.html
                          I remembering reading about the Amesbury Archer and his son when you posted that before. It would be interesting to know about their y-dna.

                          Didn't the archaeologists there theorize that they were Celts (because of the beaker-type pottery buried with them)?

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