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  • Palestinian

    Hello
    I have made the genographic test and found out that i am in the haplogroup J2 . I would likte to learn more about J2 and have some questions. First a bit about my background, my father is a Palestinian and his familly has been in Palestine for about 400 years before they were expelled in 1948. They are Muslim-Arabs but on my grandfathers side they are very lightskinned and have green eyes. Has this something to do with the J2 haplogroup or is it just a mutation among our familly? How can i find out if i have maybe crusader or European ancestery? Which haplogroup is most common among the palestinians?

    I hope someboday out there can help me.
    /Viktor

  • #2
    There is a research paper available about Palestinians and Jews.

    The conclusion seem to tell that the Palestians are the historical people to the old Palestina area, mabe old Hebrew lineages that converted to christianity and islam. There are not to any suprise detected some arab influence on the palestinian gene pool.

    This is probably news some jews dont like to hear, especially those elements claiming Palestinians are arabs that came from outside palestine after they begun settling the land, when actually they have lived there constantly for many many thousands years.

    The paper also claim to have found traces of crusaders among the palestinians.

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Ne...00-IPArabs.pdf

    There is some STR data taken from Gaza, North, Lowlands, Highlands you may compare with.
    Last edited by Noaide; 10 March 2006, 08:17 AM.

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    • #3
      Here is link you may try to convert the haplogroups to FTDNA system:

      http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenc...stem/fig1.html

      I suspect it is the pink columns to the right, maybe someone can help find the right one or a better one?

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      • #5
        Hi ViktorA.

        Here is another and more relevant one. Good Luck!


        F. Di Giacomo et.al. (2004)

        "Y chromosomal haplogroup J as a signature of the post-neolithic
        colonization of Europe"

        http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HaploJ.pdf



        ____________________

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        • #6
          J2 is more common in the northern Levant and J1 is more common in the southern Levant. Palestinians, Lebanese and Jews have members of both subclades. The Y chromosome does not influence physical appearance which is influenced by genes on the non sexual chromosomes or autosomes. An autosomal test might give some clue as to the origins of physical appearance. That is, it is possible to have Near Eastern origins in terms of the Y chromosome but other genes originally from elsewhere. Given the history of human migration, most people show a mixed pattern.

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          • #7
            Haplogroup W From Sicily How did they get there?

            My husbands mtdna is W from Sicily, How did the W get there and where did they get there from? He had a low resolution match to someone in India yet her Haplogroup is N what does it mean? Why do the Sicilians have olive skin are the the Moors or What?
            Sincerely,
            [email protected]

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            • #8
              ViktorA

              Palestine lies in a crossroads between the empires of the ancient world. Its dubious distinction is that every major army of historical significance has marched across its plains. Latin Palestina (Roman province established by the Roman Empire Hadrin) is from the Greek Palaistin. Generally it has been assumed to have derived from Philistines (pronounced –flishtim in Hebrew). However, the Semitic word Flishtim is not related to the Greek Palaistin. Flishtim comes from the root flsh and means “invaders.”

              The Flishtim are first mentioned in Scripture when relating the names of the sons of Ham, the son of Noah. In the Mesoretic text (Genesis 10:13) we find: “And Mizraim (Egypt) begot Ludim, Ananmin, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, and Casluhim, whence the Philistines came forth (i.e. invaded the Levant), and Caphorim.” The later Flishtim came during the reign of the Egyptian king, Merneptah (the son of Ramesses II) in roughly 1200 BCE. It was against these Flishtim/invaders that King David fought.

              The word Palestine comes from the Greek verb palaio, which means “to wrestle with someone.” In Scripture it is related to the Jacob wrestling with the angel (see the Greek Septuagint, Genesis 32:24). The name that the angel gave Jacob was Ysrael, meaning "he will wrestling for God" or in other words "he will be God's champion."

              Therefore, the names Palestine and Israel are interchangeable. The existence and the rights of the indigenous people of the Holy Land can never be denied. Therefore, welcome, J2, to the family of Israel. May you learn to look past canonized slander and come to see the true face of the sons of Jacob.

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              • #9
                Viktor, as a Jewish J2 on my paternal line, I say peace, brother, and may we both have states in the holy land!
                Judy

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                • #10
                  There’s a simple explanation to your puzzlement. Before the Muslims came out of Al jazeera Al Arabia, most of the Levant (North / central Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, part of Jordan, and part of Palestine) was inhabited by Christians of Soryoyo origins. These people never identified themselves as Arabs. When Islam came, conversion happened (through many ways, not the subject of the thread), many converted Christians and pagans to Islam began identifying themselves as Arab Muslims (like your self). In time, that’s all they knew about their origin. Now this test proves to you that you're originated from the Levant, and your Arabic association is your family choice when they converted.
                  We have many people in Lebanon with the same predicament as yours. All of the genetic tests conducted on Lebanese are showing that only less than 10% are of Arab origins (historically documented when such migration happened) when more than 50% claim to be Arabs. The ~ 90% left of the population (Christians and Muslims) share the same gene pool as those of the North Levant / Phoenicians, European (M35, m170, m201, m172, m17, m173, etc…).


                  Cheers

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                  • #11
                    Palestinian

                    Botys,

                    From the time of Julius Caesar until the introduction of Christianity into the region, it has been estimated that about one-fourth of the population of the Roman Empire had adopted, in varying degrees of commitment, Jewish observances. (Judaism is not a salvation religion – one does not need to convert in order to be acceptable to God) These groups were called God-fearers or God-worshipper. After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, many took part in the establishment of Christianity, while many others remained faithful to Judaism. At the conclusion of the Jerusalem revolt of 66-70, the massacres of the Jews of North Africa of 115-117, and the bloody Bar Kochbar revolt of 132-135 (brought on by Hadrin’s decision to place an idol of Jupiter on the Temple Mount) the Jews of Palestine/Israel were scattered. However, a very large population of Jews remained in the region of the Tigris/Euphrates Rivers, (where they had resided in relative peace since 587 BCE). Throughout the past 1871 years, there have always been Jewish quarters in Jerusalem, Tiberias, Hebron, Acre, and Safat. As DNA studies are now demonstrating, the Arab conquests had little effect on the genetic demographics of the region. Arab traders had established themselves in most of the major cities long before Mohammed. The main shift was political.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by csimani
                      The main shift was political.
                      Actually, the greatest shift was religious. At the time of Mohammed, the Middle East was essentially Christian, at least nominally. Yes, a few small communities of Jews remained in the area, and yes, many people in rural areas were probably still pagan in heart and practice, but the great majority counted themselves Christian.

                      Over the many centuries of Muslim rule, of course, the majority joined that religion; but even well into the 20th century, many cities and towns were still majority Christian. The last several decades of violence, however, have finally succeeded in reducing Christians to a minority essentially everywhere in the Middle East.

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                      • #13
                        By focusing on religion, my comments are moving away from the original question which was about genetics, but here are a few additional points. Many Palestinian Arabs are not from the Arabian peninsula but are basically "Arabized". Nevertheless there are haplotypes common to both Arabia and Palestine such as the Galilean Modal Haplotype.
                        During the rise of the Muslim religion there were Jews in both Palestine and Arabia. Indeed two of Muhammed's wives were Jewish, (who knew?). Nevertheless the vast majority of people in the area were not Jewish by the time of the rise of Islam.
                        Last edited by josh w.; 17 May 2006, 12:15 PM.

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                        • #14
                          Palestinian

                          Igmayka,
                          Actually, you and Josh are over-looking the Persian Zoroastrians.
                          Josh, the issue of religion is not really off the topic, since it is a central factor in whom we marry and where we live. The following is a crash course in Sassanian Persian history.
                          256 B.C.E. Seventy-six years after the death of Alexander the Great, a new power from the far northern, mountains gained control of the Middle East. The Parthians, of European descent, worshipped the sun, moon and familial genii. The heart of their worship was Mithra, the symbol of all masculine virtue. The Parthians were tolerant over-lords in cultural and religious matters. They allowed Greeks to worship the Olympian gods, and the Jews freedom of religion, both before and after their Temple was destroyed. Persian, Arabs and early Christians lived relatively peacefully side-by-side.
                          223 C.E. Artaxerxes, a Persian Magus, declared a "holy" war, to revive the religion Zarathustra had originated 774 years earlier. He was resolved, not only to throw-off Parthian rule and re-establishes the political boundaries of ancient Persia, but to destroy paganism and replace it with the pristine faith of the Persians. He waged continuous holy war from 223 through 233. Parthian, Greek, Jewish, Christian and Arab sanctuaries were closed. Non-Zoroastrians of the empire were openly persecuted. However, they were ultimately forced to absorb Mithra and the genii into the religion. The Persians’ mission, as the pure-people of the true-god, was to bring the "light" of Ahura-Mazda (God) to all mankind, and to subdue the power of Angro-Mainyus (the Devil). It was not long before the Persians came into military conflict with the power of still pagan Rome. The Zoroastrianism has always required of its followers high moral standards. Ahura-Mazda represents the totality of righteousness. His devotees were, and are still, required to emulate as nearly as possible those perfections. The Persian kings established special courts of law exclusively to hear those cases in which the poorest beggar might confront the wealthiest nobleman, if he had been wronged. However, it is questionable if the same rights were extended to the devotees of other faiths within their realm.
                          Chosroes (reigned 531-579) was more tolerant towards his Christian, Arab and Jewish subjects. He allowed them the freedom to exercise their religion, permitted them to build churches and synagogues, to conduct public services and funerals. Chosroes' fierce persecution of the Mazdakites was aimed at their crimes, more so than their beliefs. They did extract the poll-tax from non-Zoroastrians. Males under twenty or over fifty years of age, and all females were exempt from paying the poll-tax. This practice was continued by the Moslems.
                          The two world powers of Rome and Persia took every opportunity to extend their influence. At the far southern tip of the Arabian Peninsula is the ancient kingdom of Yemen. From AD 517 to 525, Yemen was ruled by a Jewish king, named Dhu Nu. The Abyssinians of Axum, located in East Africa across sea from Yemen, had accepted Christianity. With encouragement from Rome, they attacked Yemen. Dhu Nu died during these wars. (J in A land pg.) The Persians saw in the African conquest of Yemen an encroachment of Christianity. Due to other wars and concerns, it was forty years before they answered to repeated request from Yemen for aid in throwing off the foreign rule.
                          568 A.D./C.E. Once free of the African Christians, the Yemenites found that the Persians were none to eager to leave their country. Arabia was predominately pagan, but there was also a sizeable Jewish and Christian representation in the region. There was much work to be done here for the devotees of Ahura-Mazda. The idol-worshippers must be shown the error of their ways. The Kaaba, located in Mecca, was the center of Arabian Idolatry. Within a few years, the Arab tribal leaders declared the Kaaba dedicated to Allah, or “the God”, and the idols were identified as his “helpers.”
                          Muhammad's father, Abdullah died just before he was born, probably during these wars. Abdul Muttalib, his grandfather, cared of the orphan. When he was still a boy tragedy struck again, his grandfather die. His uncle, Abu Talib, a merchant, then became his protector. Due to his teachings, Muhammad was declared insane by his family. When his uncle died, his enemies sought to kill him. He fled to Medina, which was predominantly Jewish at the time. After two failed attempts to capture the vital Meccan caravan, his beodins deserted him. He, therefore, turned no the Jewish, declared them traitors, murdered some say 600 while other say 900 Jewish men, and distributed their widows among his “faithful.” That is how Muhammad came to have two Jewish wives.

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                          • #15
                            Muhammeds relationship to Jews was quite complex. While the Jewish widows were in a sense "trophy wives", some have suggested that the marriages took place for political reasons as well.. Along the same lines, the slaughter of members of one Jewish tribe may have been more political than religious. Reza Aslan ("No god but God") suggests that the Quran (5:5-7) encourages marriage with Jews (People of the Book).
                            Last edited by josh w.; 17 May 2006, 08:15 PM.

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