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  • #16
    Thanks Stevo.
    M. O'Connor, I apologize too for straying from the thread, so I add only one last thing: the indigenous Italic peoples could also have been R1b carriers, in particular of the marker S21. As far as I know the only two Italians tested by Ethnoancestry for this marker until now (I'm one of those) have resulted positive, thus some scientists are suggesting S21+ could characterize the ones whose ancestors overwintered in Italy during the LGM

    Comment


    • #17
      [QUOTE=M.O'Connor]Roadway close to Tara.

      Meath Chronicle
      http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle...issue_id=13771



      QUOTE]

      maybe the construction will find the arc and the irish might realize who they are

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by M.O'Connor
        Barbarians may have carried R1B. They were in the north of Italy for some time. R1B may also have gone east from France up the Mediterranean. Corsica/italy.

        The Romans may have brought people to Italy? I don't know the extent of R1B there. I would guess the biggest influx of R1B would have been from the north of Italy.
        According to the maps here - http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf - R1b makes up the bulk of Italy's Y-DNA.

        Maybe the deep clade tests can differentiate between native Italic R1bs, Celtic R1bs, and Germanic R1bs.

        It seems to me R1bs got around a lot and were extremely good at having sons!

        Comment


        • #19
          [QUOTE=Jim Denning]
          Originally posted by M.O'Connor
          Roadway close to Tara.

          Meath Chronicle
          http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle...issue_id=13771



          QUOTE]

          maybe the construction will find the arc and the irish might realize who they are

          yea Jim...I guess there should be some girraffs burried there..at least 2 , and there should be the bones of a couple of everything!

          Don't forget the lady Joan they picked up as the Arc sailed past France!.

          The Irish will find out they were a bunch of zoo-keepers.

          aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

          F.E.C.

          i didn't know there was any amount of R1B in Italy. I never really looked at their numbers. I do have a 12/12 match or two in italy.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by M.O'Connor
            F.E.C.

            i didn't know there was any amount of R1B in Italy. I never really looked at their numbers. I do have a 12/12 match or two in italy.
            Am I missing something? I don't understand the ironic rolleyes. Indeed I am R1b1c9* and I do have two Germans and a Manx as 12/12 matches and an Irishman and a Scot at 22/25.
            Furthermore northern Italy has one of the highest percentages of R1bs...ironically my grandfather came from central Italy and the other Italian R1b I was talking about has ancestors from the south.
            I can safely say R1bs are not so uncommon down here...

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by F.E.C.
              Am I missing something? I don't understand the ironic rolleyes. Indeed I am R1b1c9* and I do have two Germans and a Manx as 12/12 matches and an Irishman and a Scot at 22/25.
              Furthermore northern Italy has one of the highest percentages of R1bs...ironically my grandfather came from central Italy and the other Italian R1b I was talking about has ancestors from the south.
              I can safely say R1bs are not so uncommon down here...
              That's right, and as I pointed out in my last post above, the bulk of Italy's Y-DNA is R1b: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf (check out the y-haplomap on page 2).

              That is why I wonder if the fairly close relationship between the Italic subfamily of languages and the Celtic subfamily doesn't go a bit deeper, down into the Y-DNA.
              Stevo
              R1b-FGC36981
              Last edited by Stevo; 30 April 2006, 04:34 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Please don't read anything into the rolling eyes. I really just use them for colour, and fun. i better choose them more thoughtfully.

                aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

                I didn't know what Italy consisted of as far as haplo groups.

                I assumed most Italian signatures would not be R1B. I was surprised when i had a 12/12 in italy and i just passed it of as a wandering R1B.

                I am R1B1 so far, pending snp test due in May. I think it will stay the same, but I guess i have to find out.

                aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

                Exact match 12/12

                Italy (789) ..............12/12 =1 Match

                aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
                one step 11/12

                Italy (789) ..............11/12 =15 matches

                Comment


                • #23
                  Here is an estimator for a Common Ancestor.

                  You can change the number of markers from 12 to 25 or 37 if you wish.

                  http://www.moseswalker.com/mrca/calculator.asp?q=1


                  So far I guess 147 is still on target.
                  M.O'Connor
                  FTDNA Customer
                  Last edited by M.O'Connor; 30 April 2006, 09:05 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    M. O'Connor, maybe one of those matches (11/12) could even be me. I've got eleven (more than from anywhere else except from England) one step mutations from Ireland.

                    MRCA calculators' reliability is still something that makes me doubtful. anyway this is fun
                    F.E.C.
                    Registered User
                    Last edited by F.E.C.; 1 May 2006, 06:30 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      This is one story about the Picts. I was wondering about mutation 393=12 and how it seems more popular in Eastern Europe. But is found imbedded in England/Scotland/France and Ireland in smaller numbers. Could there be a link between 393=12 and the idea of the Picts comming from Eastern Europe. From what i have read, the Scythians, and probably related people in Eurasia were know to have also tattoo'd their bodies.

                      One more dna dream-theory

                      Pict site. http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/

                      aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

                      Heremon and his eldest brother Heber were, jointly, the first Milesian (from Spain) Monarchs of Ireland; they began to reign, A.M. 3,500, or, Before Christ, 1699. After Heber was slain, B.C. 1698, Heremon reigned singly for fourteen years; during which time a certain colony called by the Irish Cruithneaigh, in English "Cruthneans" or Picts, arrived in Ireland and requested Heremon to assign them a part of the country to settle in, which he refused; but, giving them as wives the widows of the Tuatha-de-Danans, slain in battle, he sent them with a strong party of his own forces to conquer the country then called "Alba," but now Scotland; conditionally, that they and their posterity should be tributary to the Monarchs of Ireland. Heremon died, B.C. 1683, and was succeeded by three of his four sons, named Muimne, Luigne, and Laighean, who reigned jointly for three years, and were slain by their Heberian successors.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I thought most scholars were generally agreed that the Scythians were an Iranian people (speaking a language closely related to Persian). The Picts were a Celtic people.

                        That Pict web site also made reference to the Picts defeating the Anglo-Saxons. When did that happen?

                        The story goes that the British King Vortigern hired Anglo-Saxon mercenaries to stop an incursion from the North by the Picts and Scots, and that the Anglo-Saxons were successful. When Vortigern reneged on the promised reward, the Anglo-Saxons rebelled and starting taking land (in the eastern part of what is now England) for themselves.

                        As the Scots from Northern Ireland moved into what is now Scotland and founded the kingdom of Dalriada, and the Anglo-Saxons moved into the lowlands of southern and eastern Scotland, the Picts were pushed to the north and west, into the Scottish Highlands.

                        Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe the Picts and Scythians are related. But I just don't see how an Iranian-speaking, horse-riding people of the Eurasian steppe managed to become, at least in part, a Celtic-speaking people of the Scottish Highlands.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'd say the Picts were an interesting group.

                          I read some of this stuff...... http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/
                          M.O'Connor
                          FTDNA Customer
                          Last edited by M.O'Connor; 1 May 2006, 03:35 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            So...who were the Cruthneans ?

                            Were they simply the Irish Scots of today ?


                            I always liked history, but i never did finish highschool. So i consider myself a continuing student of learning. There are a lot of opinions and personal conclusions. I like to read them all and weigh things myself. There doesn't seem to be much concrete knowledge on the Pict People.

                            I enjoyed this page
                            http://members.aol.com/scothist/scot3.html
                            M.O'Connor
                            FTDNA Customer
                            Last edited by M.O'Connor; 7 May 2006, 08:09 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              From what I know of the Picts, they are (or were) considered a Celtic people.
                              I think they were pretty much driven into the Highlands of Scotland by the Scots from Northern Ireland and the Anglo-Saxons.

                              I seem to remember reading more about them, but I've forgotten most of it, I guess.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                This is a few paragraphs on language from http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/picts/language.htm (near bottom )

                                "However, as the Picts themselves kept no written records of their lifestyles, beliefs or heritage, their language has now all but disappeared. The only sources that can give vague clues as to its nature are some of the carved inscriptions they left, placenames and certain accounts of Pictish names written by external sources at the time.

                                As with all things Pictish, however, the lack of concrete evidence has led to a number of opinions and theories as to the form of the spoken language of the inhabitants of Northern Scotland in the early centuries of the first millennium.

                                These generally fall into one of three camps:

                                The Picts spoke an ancient language indigenous to area - a language that predated the Celtic languages of the Britons, the Scots and the Irish. This language did not have an Indo-European origin but was instead a survival of the ancient language used by the Bronze Age people of the area.


                                The Picts spoke a P-Celtic language - that is a Celtic language related to the language of the Ancient Britons. When the Celts arrived in Britain they brought with them an Indo-European language which replaced the existing languages of country. This, say supporters, is clear from the known Pictish placenames in north-east Scotland.

                                But if this was the case why did Bede regard Pictish as a different language? Was there perhaps a strong regional accent? Just as a visitor to Orkney in past years often struggled with the Orcadian accent, although the islanders were still essentially speaking English.


                                Along the same lines is the idea that the Picts spoke a P-Celtic language, a version of Ancient British that contained elements of Irish Gaelic - fragments picked up over the years through contact with the Scotti - the invading Irish settlers who claimed territory down the west coast of Scotland. This theory is strengthened by the fact that the writing system known to be used by the Picts – Ogham – actually originated in Ireland"

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