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Pre-Indo-European Populations of Europe and Their Effect on Testing

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  • Pre-Indo-European Populations of Europe and Their Effect on Testing

    A thought just occurred to me on the mysterious spread of clade Hg I1b2.

    You may recall that the bearers of I1b2 are thought to have weathered the LGM in the Iberian refuge; and that today, the Hg is found ONLY in Portugal, Spain, England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Sweden.

    Specifically, the most significant numbers of I1b2 men are found in Sardinia, Castile, Basque country, the parts of France formerly known as Aquitaine and Italy, plus a few other areas.

    Now, let's look to the dawn of recorded history for the parts of Europe with large non-Indo-European speaking populations: Greek and Roman and native sources (inscriptions, etc.) record those areas as: Sardinia, Aquitaine, Basque Country, and parts of Italy and Scandinavia.

    The ancient Basques call themselves: Euskadi or Auskadi

    The Ancient Scands (yes, the root of Scandinavia) called themselves: Skadi

    The non-Indo-European Aquitainians called themselves: Ausci

    The recently IndoEuropeanized Italians called themselves: Osci

    Coincidence?

    Throw in the fact that the Picts (in Scotland) were arguably non-IE, and the fact the ancient Sardinians called themselves Sardi or Shadi or Shardi, and you have a clear genetic and linguistic pattern, explained perhaps by these mysterious Hg I1b2 people.

  • #2
    Pre-indoeuropeans

    ---------------------------
    March 7 '06

    I am glad others are aware of the pre-Indo-European elements in Europe. Even before I thought much about DNA geneology, I've often wondered and speculated on that subject.

    The Indo-Euroepans are relative newcomers to western Europe. And they most likely did not exterminate the peoples with whom they came in contact in their expansions to the west. The blond-haired peoples of northern Europe most likely spoke non-Indo-European languages before they switched to the languages of the "new world order" brought by the IE's.

    I have also wondered about the Pre-Indo-Europeans in the British Isles. For example, the "Black Irish" may be Pre-Indo-European survivors.

    It's fun to speculate.

    Phil Hotlen
    --------------------------------

    Comment


    • #3
      Ancestor may have been one

      This is an interesting idea. So why did some of this group go to Britain?

      Comment


      • #4
        Walking from Iberia to Britain?

        Originally posted by wefpam
        This is an interesting idea. So why did some of this group go to Britain?
        The weather was warming, you could walk there, it was vacant, looked pleasant and well-watered, and the fishing and hunting were good.

        (Land bridges -"Doggerland etc " available due to post-glacial residual lower sea level. Not a long raft southwind crossing anyway!)

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        • #5
          Britain was vacant?

          I am very new to this. It was in my mind that the Rb1s where in Britain when the I groups came in. Or did they come in at the same time? Part of the same group, but admixed.

          Comment


          • #6
            There is growing evidence that the hunter-gatherers of the Franco-Calabrian refuge were an already heterogenous group of haplogroups R and I, both present in Europe before the LGM. In the Western refuge, mutations occurred in either haplogroup which defined the subclades R1b and I1a respectively. The same heterogenerous group later settled in Britain. Almost all I's in Scandinavia are I1a, suggesting one early migration from the Western ice age refuge. Unlike most of Scandinavia, Britain experienced several later waves of immigration from Central Europe, making the subclade situation within haplogroup I in Britain more complex.

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            • #7
              Sorry, I forgot to mention E3b which might have been present in Europe before the Neolithic as well.

              Comment


              • #8
                Interesting

                I have been tracking E3b and getting similiar results, at least for my haplotype. Basques and the Baltic area. However, in Europe before LGM?....that was my hypothesis and there is some genetic data to support further investigaton. Haplogroups I and E3b have the same migration patterns.

                Everybody thought I was crazy.

                Hits on YHRD

                Note the Balkan hits.
                Last edited by Rossi; 1 April 2006, 05:15 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/a...hp/t-1616.html


                  aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

                  "Black Irish" is an American term.
                  http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by anka
                    There is growing evidence that the hunter-gatherers of the Franco-Calabrian refuge were an already heterogenous group of haplogroups R and I, both present in Europe before the LGM. In the Western refuge, mutations occurred in either haplogroup which defined the subclades R1b and I1a respectively. The same heterogenerous group later settled in Britain. Almost all I's in Scandinavia are I1a, suggesting one early migration from the Western ice age refuge. Unlike most of Scandinavia, Britain experienced several later waves of immigration from Central Europe, making the subclade situation within haplogroup I in Britain more complex.
                    Thank you for the info. You have given me a whole new view on this subject. I find the Oxford use of Wodan and Oisin very misleading then. I must say that the Letter/number designations are not much fun. They do seem to be scientific that is without cultural bagage. When the haplogroups are pined down more perhaps they could be called by there geographical point of origin.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      From what I have read, the Scandivanian, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Nordic region suffered no noticeable intrusions after the Mesolithic Period or, at the latest, the Neolithic. The population there was an amalgam of Cro-Magnons (R1bs/R1as?) and Combe Capelles (I1as?).

                      I know that some folks believe that R1as were the original Indo-Europeans, but I find such a view somewhat simplistic. There are too many competing theories of Indo-European origins.

                      I am curious about the Pre-Indo-European population, too. The evidence is that they were shorter in stature than the I-Es and darker. Were they E3bs and I1bs, especially about the Mediterranean?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stevo
                        From what I have read, the Scandivanian, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Nordic region suffered no noticeable intrusions after the Mesolithic Period or, at the latest, the Neolithic. The population there was an amalgam of Cro-Magnons (R1bs/R1as?) and Combe Capelles (I1as?).

                        I know that some folks believe that R1as were the original Indo-Europeans, but I find such a view somewhat simplistic. There are too many competing theories of Indo-European origins.

                        I am curious about the Pre-Indo-European population, too. The evidence is that they were shorter in stature than the I-Es and darker. Were they E3bs and I1bs, especially about the Mediterranean?
                        Sorry for the typo. That should read "Scandinavian" not "Scandivanian."

                        It's bad to look stupid in one's first post! Too late to worry about that, I guess!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I1B's are not shorter and darker

                          They predominate in the Balkans/parts of central Europe, and are quite tall.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NormanGalway
                            They predominate in the Balkans/parts of central Europe, and are quite tall.
                            Thanks.

                            Were they always that way?

                            Modern humans are a mix of many things. Y-DNA isn't the whole story, not by a long shot.

                            I was thinking in terms of archaeological finds that indicate that the Pre-IE population of Europe was short and swarthy, especially round about the Mediterranean. But perhaps those folks weren't any kind of haplogroup I.

                            I really don't think anyone knows who the original Indo-Europeans were, and, since that is the case, who the Pre-Indo-Europeans were.

                            But it's interesting to discuss it, to learn, and to speculate.

                            Come to think of it, I have some friends from Bulgaria, and they are tall folks, but I don't know their haplogroups (neither do they). I don't even know my own yet!

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