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  • #31
    Eki,

    I think you may be paying too much attention to a single study. Other online databases: Ysearch, THRD, Ybase, Sorenson, etc. show more than your "one person" with I1b2 in Sweden.

    I wouldn't base your whole theory on the "one person" defense, because undoubtedly they will find more! And of course, surely one must explain why no descendants of "foreign mercenaries" are found in Norway, etc. if the mechanism which you cite is so obvious and credible.

    In fact, the clade is found in North Germany and along the Belgium coast too. The Megalithic Mariner hypothesis is sounding more credible daily.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by YCCHgI
      And of course, surely one must explain why no descendants of "foreign mercenaries" are found in Norway, etc. if the mechanism which you cite is so obvious and credible.
      Simply because Norway wasn't a Great Power like Sweden around the 17th century. At that time, Norway was a northern periphery of the kingdom of Denmark, and it wasn't much of a war zone either for most of the time. Furthermore, Norway was rather poor compared to Sweden before they struck oil. They didn't have large scale industry that required a lot of immigrant workers, except maybe the fish industry in northern Norway, but I guess those jobs went mostly to Finns and not also to Italians, Yugoslavians, Turks, etc. like in the Swedish automobile industry. And it's a well known fact that many Nordic women are attracted to "Latin-lover" types from southern Europe and the Middle East. All that is needed is one passionate moment on the backseat of a Volvo

      This doesn't mean there haven't been immigrants in Norway throughout the history. There have, but not as many as in Sweden and maybe not so many I1b2s, or maybe they just haven't been found yet.

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      • #33
        After the black death, maybe only around 1/3 of the Norse population survived, making the country at the mercy of foreign rulers. This was followed by a massive migration from continental Europe. Thats why southern Norway, Nederlands and Germans is quite similar at the Y-DNA level.

        Source: Dupuy 2005-

        [QUOTE=YCCHgI]I wouldn't base your whole theory on the "one person" defense, because undoubtedly they will find more! And of course, surely one must explain why no descendants of "foreign mercenaries" are found in Norway, etc. if the mechanism which you cite is so obvious and credible.
        QUOTE]

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        • #34
          Originally posted by YCCHgI
          Eki,

          I think you may be paying too much attention to a single study. Other online databases: Ysearch, THRD, Ybase, Sorenson, etc. show more than your "one person" with I1b2 in Sweden.

          I checked Ysearch, "Search by Haplogroup" found only 7 I1b2s of 4 different surnames. They were from the USA, Italy, Spain and England. Ybase, YHRD and Sorenson don't allow searches by haplogroups, just by haplotypes (STR markers).

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          • #35
            Yes, you'll have to search by haplotype (STRs), not SNPs to find them. I1b2 has a very clear haplotype.

            YHRD has the most comprehensive data, followed by Sorenson.
            Last edited by YCCHgI; 11th March 2006, 04:40 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by YCCHgI
              Yes, you'll have to search by haplotype (STRs), not SNPs to find them. I1b2 has a very clear haplotype.

              YHRD has the most comprehensive data, followed by Sorenson.
              The biggest genetic distance between those 7 individuals of I1b2 in the YSearch database is 9 (12 markers compared). Does that mean a very clear haplotype? What does the haplotype predictor at https://home.comcast.net/%7Ewhitathe...ictorinstr.htm say if you enter that haplotype data?

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              • #37
                grasping at straws

                Eki,

                I1B2 is not found in the Middle East or Turkey. As for "Southern Europe," Latin Lover types, that is flattering but frankly you have no idea what you are talking about. I1B2 has been in Western Europe for millenia, and there is no reason to believe it hasn't been in Sweden for much if not most of that time. Just because something like I1B2 is found in very small concentrations (as it is in Ireland, Normandy, and yes -- Basque country -- where it is only 6%, does not make it "foreign.") At what point of population concentration does something become "foreign?" Native Americans (Indians) are now only found in small concentrations in the Continental US... does that make them foreign? How about in South America, where aboriginal Y-DNA signatures are almost absent?

                Foreign is a loaded word, as I tried to point out earlier. Bear in mind that I1B2 is part of the same haplogroup (I) as the majority of Scandinavians!

                I1B2 has been around for as LONG, LONG time -- many thousands of years. What makes you think it only traveled around in the last forty -- or four hundred? Nothing but supposition.

                I do not believe you are not taking into account the immensity of time. The last few centuries are merely a drop in the bucket.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by NormanGalway
                  Eki,

                  I1B2 is not found in the Middle East or Turkey. As for "Southern Europe," Latin Lover types, that is flattering but frankly you have no idea what you are talking about. I1B2 has been in Western Europe for millenia, and there is no reason to believe it hasn't been in Sweden for much if not most of that time. Just because something like I1B2 is found in very small concentrations (as it is in Ireland, Normandy, and yes -- Basque country -- where it is only 6%, does not make it "foreign.") At what point of population concentration does something become "foreign?" Native Americans (Indians) are now only found in small concentrations in the Continental US... does that make them foreign? How about in South America, where aboriginal Y-DNA signatures are almost absent?

                  Foreign is a loaded word, as I tried to point out earlier. Bear in mind that I1B2 is part of the same haplogroup (I) as the majority of Scandinavians!

                  I1B2 has been around for as LONG, LONG time -- many thousands of years. What makes you think it only traveled around in the last forty -- or four hundred? Nothing but supposition.

                  I do not believe you are not taking into account the immensity of time. The last few centuries are merely a drop in the bucket.
                  I didn't say I1b2 is found in Turkey or the Middle East. I said a large number of immigrant workers from Turkey arrived Sweden between the 1950s and 1970s, in addition to a large number of workers from Italy, Yugoslavia and Finland. I also suggested that the appearance of Turkish and Middle Eastern men often resemble the "Latin lover" appearance of some southern European men.

                  Why is I1a so commonly found in south Sweden (35.7%) and I1b2 so rarely (0.6%) if they have been there for the same period of time? I don't think they were so different that I1b2 had some serious disadvantage in reproducing.

                  I think ONE person or even 0.6% is a drop in the bucket. How do you explain the 1.5% of a I1a haplotype among Greenland Inuits? Are you saying Scandinavians had been there long before Erik the Red settled in Greenland in the 980s? You also mentioned how Native Americans have become a minority. That has happened in the last few centuries. See, a lot can happen in the last few centuries. About 60% of the Jews in Israel are foreign born (foreign here means they were born outside Israel, just to make it clear), so a lot can happen in the last 40 years as well.

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                  • #39
                    I1c is part of I1b2

                    Recent SNP testing has resulted in re-classifying I1c as I1b2a.
                    See the new haplo-I chart here: Haplogroup I Tree

                    Chuck

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                    • #40
                      I1b2 in Orkney and British isles

                      As Capelli's study makes clear,

                      http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/capelli2_CB.pdf

                      "Here, we note that another haplogroup (I1b2) is found almost ex-
                      clusively in British populations that have experienced
                      little or no continental genetic input (Tables 1 and S1).
                      Intriguingly, earlier studies have shown that it is present
                      in the Iberian Peninsula at low frequencies (5.4%)
                      The detailed sampling scheme used here identified other
                      and in Sardinia at a significant percentage (35.1%). This group might be another constituent of the European Paleolithic."

                      The point being that like R1B, I1b2 has been around for a very long time in Northwestern Europe.

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                      • #41
                        who's to say?

                        We can dream up all kinds of things. like trying to explain R1B's 393=12 in Scotland, Ireland.

                        Perhaps they are the most ancient people who were squeezed between the Norse I, the Irish-Scots R1B 393=13, and Romans from the south.

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