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  • #16
    On the contrary, we have been saying that one person in just 168 people don't make things statistically certain.

    BTW, parts of Finland and Karelia belonged to Sweden (or sometimes to Denmark) from about 1200 to 1808, and foreign mercenaries served there for Sweden as well, not to mention foreign merchants and craftsmen. For example, the Olavinlinna castle in eastern Finland had chiefs from Scotland and France, among the usual Swedes and Danes. And DNA and genealogy seem to suggest that even Norwegians were active in Finland and Karelia during the Viking times.

    Originally posted by NormanGalway
    about something that is highly uncertain, and about which little is known.

    It is beyond silly for you to make assertions like I12B is a "recent" arrival to Sweden. You simply do not know that. So I would relax a bit and try to keep an open mind. I assure you that while genetic genealogy is in its infancy is not the time to confidently make assertions like you have.

    Note that I did NOT say that I12B was prevalent in Scandinavia.

    However, it is not restricted to southern sweden. My matches also come from the swedish-speaking population of Finland and also in Karelia.

    So try to "lighten up" as we say here in the States and enjoy the ride.

    Comment


    • #17
      my point is that it's silly to

      draw inferences from such a small sample size in either direction.

      Everyone in Sweden is "foreign" -- even the earliest settlers moved there after the ice retreated. Roughly a fifth to a quarter of the current population is LITERALLY foregn born or second generation, and most of those are from Muslim lands. I group members have been in Europe since Paleolithic times, so a bit of perspective is in order.

      Even in places where I12B is small (read: everywhere except Sardinia, where it is still a minority), the current theories is that it is "aboriginal," and moved there long before recorded history. The Basques and Sardinians are some of the most ancient, isolated peoples in Europe.

      My point is that you don't know (and neither do I) when or whence I12B in Sweden originated, and it's absurd to pretend otherwise.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by NormanGalway

        My point is that you don't know (and neither do I) when or whence I12B in Sweden originated, and it's absurd to pretend otherwise.
        That's my point too, and I guess it's also Wena's point.

        Comment


        • #19
          What the bleep do we know about anything.. so keep your ligther up Norman!

          Originally posted by NormanGalway
          it is not restricted to southern sweden. My matches also come from the swedish-speaking population of Finland and also in Karelia. .

          Interesting. It seems that your findings are published, if so please share the article of files.
          The findings discussed over were with reference to Rootsi et.al.


          Originally posted by NormanGalway
          about something that is highly uncertain, and about which little is known. It is beyond silly for you to make assertions like I12B is a "recent" arrival to Sweden.
          The things perceived are in the eyes of the beholder. Please read the text all over again, and you will learn that I did not assert that I1b2 came with a recent migration to Sweden. Actually I mentioned several possibilities (tell me if you want me to repeat them).

          What is known about the frequencies of I1b2 in Scandinavia the so far is that:
          1) I1b2 is found in a very low frequency in Southern Sweden, according to Rootsi et.al.
          2) I1b2 is not spread to the rest of Sweden according to Rootsi et.al.
          3) I1b2 is not found in other Scandinavian populations, still referring to Rootsi et.al.


          It is a mistake to generalize I1b2 to the whole Scandinavian population, no matter if this does not match your ideology or theory.

          The Norse mythological name “Skadi” have most likely nothing to do with I1b2 or any other particular haplogroups.



          _____________
          Last edited by ; 9 March 2006, 04:43 PM.

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          • #20
            sure there is a connection they are all keltoi

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jim Denning
              sure there is a connection they are all keltoi
              What connection and who are keltoi?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Wena
                What connection and who are keltoi?

                the keltoi settled western europe balkins and this included britany,france spain swiss germany scandanavia thrace parts of italy lithuania ect so sure they are related
                and the melicians [gauls] were of the same people but came from africa to spain but still hebrew

                Comment


                • #23
                  Wena,

                  A couple things:

                  First, I have yet to hear a plausible mechanism (other than, "it is what it is") for how Hg I1b2 made it to Sweden. I merely posted a theory to encourage debate. I think you bring a lot to the forums here, and still welcome your input.

                  My little theory on the connection between the non-Indo-European people of Europe is far from new. Many have attempted to connect the Basques to Scands and others. The link between the Aquitani and the Basques has been conclusively established.

                  At any rate, I thought my take on it (the Megalithic aspect, and the tribal names, which are SO fundamental that "coincidences" are immensely significant) was an interesting attempt to explain the presence of I1b2 in Sweden.

                  You pointed out the sample size, so I will point this out to you: the major I study had an enormous sample from Scotland. Found no Hg I1b2. Yet, it found a comparatively large number (huge by I1b2 standards) in Ireland, and a significant population in England.

                  How do you explain that?

                  Incidentally, your claim that Sardinia defines the clade is dead wrong and accepted by very few (although I must admit some) scientists.

                  The founders of islands have tremendous effect on the populations through the ages. If you take a population that was 80% X and 20% Y, but the first settlers of an island happen to come from the 20%, you will have skewed numbers for millenia.

                  I finally took a map of Europe from dnaheritage.com, and shaded myself the distribution of Hg I1b2, based on every study I could find and every online database I could find.

                  It looks to me the progenitors of Hg I1b2 were clearly a seafaring population of intrepid mariners, who took off from the Atlantic side of France and the Mediterranean side of France. The southern STRs appear to be separate from the Northern STRs too.

                  But I cannot rule out other theories, such as a Visigothic or Vandal spread, or the "R1b accompaniment theory," which I have posted elsewhere on this site. Of course, our Hg I Perigordian ancestors were the ruling class during the LGM.

                  Anyway, thanks for your contributions.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I also note the only people upset about the I1b2 in Sweden theory are Scandinavians. It's always a little hard to discuss objectively your own people, no?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Can only speak for my self and I am not upset.

                      0.6% of I1b2 in Sweden is a fact. I do not have anything against or any preference for particular genetic markers, why should I?

                      The fallacy is to try to connect particular genes with particular names and to whole cultures, for Scandinavia especially because the frequency of the genes is so small in and only for south Sweden. Everyone understands that the persons on Sardinia with I1b2 must have played a major part of the construction of culture, but their I1b2 genes are found in 40% of the total population.


                      Wena signature: The male form of “the Cinderella complex” is “the Viking wannabe complex”

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jim Denning
                        the keltoi settled western europe balkins and this included britany,france spain swiss germany scandanavia thrace parts of italy lithuania ect so sure they are related
                        and the melicians [gauls] were of the same people but came from africa to spain but still Hebrew
                        Ok, what you are saying is that I1b2 describes Celts and that they are Hebrew people. Interesting, I did not know that they were Hebrew. So far so good, the genetic relationships are reflected in their genes. No one disputes that.

                        But it is a long step aside to connect the I1b2-genes and those different names mentioned by YCCHgI. Names are cultural constructions, not genetic ones.

                        To you remind you what we are discussing:

                        Originally posted by YCCHgI
                        A thought just occurred to me on the mysterious spread of clade Hg I1b2.

                        You may recall that the bearers of I1b2 are thought to have weathered the LGM in the Iberian refuge; and that today, the Hg is found ONLY in Portugal, Spain, England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Sweden.

                        Specifically, the most significant numbers of I1b2 men are found in Sardinia, Castile, Basque country, the parts of France formerly known as Aquitaine and Italy, plus a few other areas.

                        Now, let's look to the dawn of recorded history for the parts of Europe with large non-Indo-European speaking populations: Greek and Roman and native sources (inscriptions, etc.) record those areas as: Sardinia, Aquitaine, Basque Country, and parts of Italy and ScandinaviaThe ancient Basques call themselves: Euskadi or Auskadi

                        The Ancient Scands (yes, the root of Scandinavia) called themselves: Skadi

                        The non-Indo-European Aquitainians called themselves: Ausci

                        The recently IndoEuropeanized Italians called themselves: Osci

                        The “Skadi” myth is found in Norse mythology and culture, the same myths describe a diversity of different people belonging to that culture. Support for the Viking-diversity theory comes from recent studies of ancient genes and also from newer archaeological findings of a very similar, but older Viking culture in Azov. I1b2 is not significantly or widely observed in Eastern Europe. Additionally Ellen Levy-Coffman (2005) and also David Faux have found haplogroup Q and R1a1 at the Shetland Islands where many Norwegian Vikings settled. Levy-Coffman reports that haplogroup Q is found in Norway and among the Ashkebani Jews. This is described as – “a rare link between two very different populations who may share a common ancestor from Central Asia or Eastern Europe” (reference can be found here).

                        Cultures are complex and so was the Viking culture, composed with groups of eastern and western Europeans, of Jews, and other people and possible also of Kelt people with I1b2.

                        By the way... Are there any studies of ancient genes that connects I1b2 to the Vikings?

                        To me it seems like a fundamental attribution error to say that any particular subclade (or any particular haplogroup) have played a major part in the making of the Viking culture or have been central to the “Skadi”.


                        Wena signature: The male form of “the Cinderella complex” is “the Viking wannabe complex”

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by YCCHgI
                          I also note the only people upset about the I1b2 in Sweden theory are Scandinavians. It's always a little hard to discuss objectively your own people, no?
                          I'm not upset either. I just say that one person is not hard evidence. People didn't stop migrating and reproducing in pre-historic times, they still happen. According to another statistics, 0.4% of Afro-Carribean in London and 1.5% of European-American in Pennsylvania share my I1a haplotype. Yet I don't make the conclusion that Finland was settled by Afro-Carribeans and by people from Pennsylvania. BTW, people can sometimes know more about the history of their own people because they know the local language, culture and geography, no?
                          Last edited by Eki; 10 March 2006, 12:40 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Saami and the Basque

                            YCCHgI,

                            There exist a possible linguistic connection between the Saami and a unknown language, possible some kind of ancient basque but for sure not indo-european or uralic. The Saami do speak a Finnic-Uralic language, but there is believed to exist a substantial substrata of an unknown language that make it impossible for lingustic to construct a proto Finnic-Saami common language.

                            http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~lillekas/mainlanguage.html

                            Quote:

                            "In accordance with this, it may be concluded that whichever the language – a Finno-Ugric or non-Finno-Ugric –, brought behind the ice field by the Lapps’ ancestors, it certainly preserved well under the conditions of isolation. After the icecap had conclusively thawed, the Lapp and Finnic language forms came into contact and a language shift actually took place – the transition of the Lapps to the Finnic language form with a strong substratum from their own earlier language form, preserved in their new language form. This supposition is backed up by the whole picture showing what happens if we observe the hopeless attempts to take Finnic and Lapp languages back to a common proto-language."

                            Originally posted by YCCHgI
                            My little theory on the connection between the non-Indo-European people of Europe is far from new. Many have attempted to connect the Basques to Scands and others. The link between the Aquitani and the Basques has been conclusively established.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Wena
                              The fallacy is to try to connect particular genes with particular names and to whole cultures, for Scandinavia especially because the frequency of the genes is so small in and only for south Sweden. Everyone understands that the persons on Sardinia with I1b2 must have played a major part of the construction of culture, but their I1b2 genes are found in 40% of the total population.
                              You've GOT to be kidding me.

                              The whole point of this forum, te entire point of the Genographic project, the entire goal of many genealogists, is to see which cultures and which ethnic groups are connected to, and can be revealed by, the spread of a DNA signature!

                              When they discovered that J2, G2 and E3b came to Europe around the time agriculture did - AND that the spread of those clades mirrors EXACTLY the spread of agriculture - we ALL learned a great deal about European prehistory and European ethnicity.

                              As for names: names for important things, mentioned daily, rarely change. This is why "king" is similar to "konig" in German and "rex" is similar to "raja" in Sanskrit.

                              Finding similar names for nations themselves - located very very far away (like the non-Indo-European Basques, aka Euskadi and the pre-Indo-European Scands, aka Skadi) is significant.

                              Finding a genetic link between the lands (Spain & Sweden) which because of their isolation, have retained SOME pre-IE roots is also significant.

                              One must explain it.

                              I appreciate everyone's input. But I still have not heard from you a mechanism for why a Southern Italian, a Sardinian and a Spaniard share a rare clade with a Swede. You seem like a very intelligent guy, but so far you just criticize other people's theories, which is too easy.

                              Others have proposed mechanisms.

                              They include: a prehistoric seafaring people who originated near the Pyrenees and sailed from the Atlantic side of France to Ireland, England, Normandy and Sweden -- and sailed from the Mediterranean side of France to Sardinia and Italy. This is my favorite.

                              Perhaps plausible would be a tiny population of people from any of the lands, including Sweden, who conquered or ruled the other lands during historical times. From South Sweden came the Visigoths. They ruled all of the lands where I1b2 exists. So this is NOT an impossible theory, albeit unlikely. I think more testing needs to be done. Either way, due to the high presence of Hg I in Scandinavia, I understand how one could latch on to this theory.

                              It is also possible that an I* population lived somewhere and half mutated to I1b2 and half to I1c. My understanding is that these clades both stem from a common ancestor. Just a thought.

                              To Eki: you have so confused the concept of "mechanism," it is almost not worth mentioning. In your African-American example, it is clear that some I1a Norse settled in England, and some English settled in America, and some English were slaveowners, and some slaveowners had children with their slaves. That is the mechanism for I1a among African-Americans.

                              Pray tell, what is the mechanism for a clade present in tiny numbers, but existing in measurable size only in Spain, France, Portugal, England, Ireland, France, Italy, Sweden and arguably Belgium and Germany? It is not found elsewhere, so careful what you say! And genetic drift cannot be an acceptable explanation, because of the vast and often isolated distances involved.

                              School us please. We're listening.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mikey
                                To Eki: you have so confused the concept of "mechanism," it is almost not worth mentioning. In your African-American example, it is clear that some I1a Norse settled in England, and some English settled in America, and some English were slaveowners, and some slaveowners had children with their slaves. That is the mechanism for I1a among African-Americans.

                                Pray tell, what is the mechanism for a clade present in tiny numbers, but existing in measurable size only in Spain, France, Portugal, England, Ireland, France, Italy, Sweden and arguably Belgium and Germany? It is not found elsewhere, so careful what you say! And genetic drift cannot be an acceptable explanation, because of the vast and often isolated distances involved.

                                School us please. We're listening.
                                Duh. I think I already did. Several times. It's only ONE person among 168 people from southern Sweden who were sampled. That ONE person could have his roots in stoneage Sweden OR his ancestor could have been a foreign mercenary, merchant, craftsman, etc. in the 17th century Sweden OR he could be offspring of an immigrant worker who arrived Sweden in the 1950s to assemble Saab Scania trucks in Södertälje.

                                And those are just few of the many possible mechanisms of how that ONE individual could have ended up in southern Sweden.

                                I1a has left a far greater impact on for example Greenland and parts of America, although European immigration to those parts of the World started relatively late.

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