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  • Connection between Scandinavians, Basques, etc.

    A thought just occurred to me on the mysterious spread of clade Hg I1b2.

    You may recall that the bearers of I1b2 are thought to have weathered the LGM in the Iberian refuge; and that today, the Hg is found ONLY in Portugal, Spain, England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Sweden.

    Specifically, the most significant numbers of I1b2 men are found in Sardinia, Castile, Basque country, the parts of France formerly known as Aquitaine and Italy, plus a few other areas.

    Now, let's look to the dawn of recorded history for the parts of Europe with large non-Indo-European speaking populations: Greek and Roman and native sources (inscriptions, etc.) record those areas as: Sardinia, Aquitaine, Basque Country, and parts of Italy and Scandinavia.

    The ancient Basques call themselves: Euskadi or Auskadi

    The Ancient Scands (yes, the root of Scandinavia) called themselves: Skadi

    The non-Indo-European Aquitainians called themselves: Ausci

    The recently IndoEuropeanized Italians called themselves: Osci

    Coincidence?

    Throw in the fact that the Picts (in Scotland) were arguably non-IE, and the fact the ancient Sardinians called themselves Sardi or Shadi or Shardi, and you have a clear genetic and linguistic pattern, explained perhaps by these mysterious Hg I1b2 people.

  • #2
    Where exactly do you find that Scandinavians have Hg I1b2?


    Here you can see that south Sweden have a minimal frequency of the referred haplogroup of a not so mysterious haplogroup Hg I1b2. It is very definable and observable, but not in the Scandinavian or the Scottish. Here are the relevant frequencies of Hg I1b2 listed in Rootsi et.al.(2004) :

    Saami: 0 %
    Scotland: 0%
    Scottish Isles: 0.4 %
    South Sweden: 0.6 %
    Norwegian: 0%
    North Sweden: 0%

    The connection is fantasised. Frequencies of Hg I1b2 are very high in both
    The Sardinians: 40.9 %.
    The Basques: 6.0 %.


    The data given in the referred study undermine your theory: The similarities in names of the different groups of people are not reflected in any genetic connections of Hg I1b2.
    Last edited by Wena; 5th March 2006, 02:18 PM.

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    • #3
      Ah yes, but we are not talking a large haplogroup (like J or E) or a large group (like R1a or R1b); we are talking a very tiny subclade: I1b2.

      Small percentages are therefore rather significant...

      Comment


      • #4
        And even if my proposed mechanism or marker (I1b2) is wrong, and the ancient peoples were connected by R1b, the linguistic similarities between those words may reflect a pre-Indo-European common gloss/definition of the word "people", "tribe" or "us." It's still some interesting stuff, IMO.

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        • #5
          Another intriguing correlation between the spread of these peoples is the Megalithic monuments in Europe, one of the first "holy grails" of genetic anthropology that Cavalli-Sforza identified.

          You have Stonehenge in Britain, the Nuraghi in Sardinia, plus other megalithic monuments in...Spain, France, S. Italy and Scandinavia...

          Comment


          • #6
            check Rootsi, Wena

            http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...medid=15162323

            Look at table 1 (at the end of the report), and you will see the I12B in Sweden.

            the fantasy appears to be yours, Wena.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NormanGalway
              http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/article...medid=15162323

              Look at table 1 (at the end of the report), and you will see the I12B in Sweden.

              the fantasy appears to be yours, Wena.
              Yes, but it's only 0.6%. It could easily have arrived Sweden with Italian immigrants in historic times.

              It's like, according to yhrd.org, my (I1a) haplotype is found in about 1.5% of Greenland Inuits and 8% in Southern Norway. Knowing history, I think it's safe to say the haplotype arrived Greenland after 1000 AD from Scandinavia and not the other way around.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NormanGalway
                [url]
                Look at table 1 (at the end of the report), and you will see the I12B in Sweden.
                the fantasy appears to be yours, Wena.
                Please Read what I wrote all over again and the added article. A frequency of 0.6% in southern Sweden is too low to generalize from, when the rest of Scandinavia has a zero frequency of Hg I1b2. This means that the name “Skadi” probably have nothing to do with Hg I12b.

                Whatever name the Scottish Picts used for themselves, an I1b2 frequency of 0.4 % at the Scottish Isles cannot be generalized to all Scottish. Scottland have 0 % of I1b2.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Let me just weigh in:

                  I1b2, as far as I know, is a VERY rare clade.

                  It's presence in Sweden is significant. There is nothing to indicate it comes from recent Italian immigrants.

                  I imagine the scientists writing that paper would be bright enough to note a pattern of "Swedes" with the last name "Angelini" or "Michelangelo."!

                  When you are talking a clade that is considered "high" in the single digits (witness all statements about the clade relating to Basques, etc.), 0.6% is considered significant. How did it get there?

                  Incidentally, one Spanish DNA project on Rootsweb calls I1b2 the "Visigothic signature." Apparently, it is present in counties in Spain and Sweden and Italy where the Visigoths had a serious presence.

                  Doesn't explain its presence in Sardinia or the absence in Romania (former being ruled by the Goths briefly, the latter for a while).

                  At any rate, Wena, I think most posters posted the theory with appropriate open-mindedness and skepticism. It is up to those dismissing a theory to propose an alternative, and present it fairly.

                  What is your model for the spread of I1b2 to the few countries where it exists? How can you explain its presence in Sweden, but not Norway or Denmark or Germany? Why is it present in Normandy and S. France? Why is it so significant in Sardinia?

                  We're all ears!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=Mikey]
                    What is your model for the spread of I1b2 to the few countries where it exists? How can you explain its presence in Sweden, but not Norway or Denmark or Germany? [QUOTE]

                    The sample size in south Sweden, where the I1b2 was found, was only 168 people. 0.6% of 168 people is only one person, so finding that one person could as well have been a statistical fluke. As for the surname, that person could have a Swedish mother and his mother's surname.
                    Last edited by Eki; 9th March 2006, 01:46 AM.

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                    • #11
                      I find it bizarre...

                      that some people find it hard to accept that I12B is in Sweden.

                      The fact remains: it is there.

                      Saying it is in very low concentrations does not mean it is not from "Sweden," a long time before "Sweden" even existed. I am I12B and have found other matches in Sweden -- not just one. And I am neither Sardinian nor Basque -- in fact, I share an unusual surname with a very ancient, and well-known, Swedish family.

                      As Mikey said, I12B is also in very low concentrations most other places where it is found. I12B is a rare subclade, and unlike I1B is hypothesized to have begun in Franco-Cantabria, ie Western Europe, not Central or Eastern.

                      In time, many of these questions will hopefully be answered -- by data and THEN theories. But those who are doctrinaire about their viewpoints this early in the game are certain to be disappointed.

                      The only reason I even replied to this thread was the silly statement that the person who originated it had "fantasized" a link between Sweden and I12B. I pointed out this was itself a fantasy, as indeed it is.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NormanGalway
                        that some people find it hard to accept that I12B is in Sweden. The fact remains: it is there.

                        The only reason I even replied to this thread was the silly statement that the person who originated it had "fantasized" a link between Sweden and I12B. I pointed out this was itself a fantasy, as indeed it is.
                        It is not hard to accept that I1b2 genes are found in Sweden. It is the significance of the 0.6 percent that is debated. If you criticise my use of the word “fantasised” so please read my postings again. It is not the link between Sweden and I1b2 that is questioned, but the attempt to make a correlation between the bearers of haplogroup I1b2 and groups of people that had linguistically similar names (referring to the first post in this tread).

                        Originally posted by YCCHgI
                        : The Ancient Scands (yes, the root of Scandinavia) called themselves: Skadi.
                        … you have a clear genetic and linguistic pattern, explained perhaps by these mysterious Hg I1b2 people.
                        From this assertion you should expect to find really ancient markers connected to haplogroup I1b2 being specific for Scandinavia, and also that I1b2 was highly frequent all over Scandinavia.

                        The thing is: Scandinavia is much larger than Sweden, and I1b2 is not spread all over Sweden and 0% in the rest of Scandinavia. Observations of a very low frequent haplogroup I1b2 in Southern Sweden do not justify the attempt to generalise it to a group of people that named the whole Scandinavia.

                        The people that first populated these areas most probably also named Scandinavia. The only ancient Scandinavian group of people with specific genetic markers living today have a very high frequency of haplogroup I, but no M26 (I1b2) are observed in their gene pool.

                        My conclusion from this is that it is meaningless to try to make a connection between haplogroup I1b2 and the people called “Skadi” (from Norse mythology). Such a correlation is highly speculative and is based on fantasies more than anything.

                        As long as no old genetic motifs of a particular haplogroup are observed in a population its members most probably come from recent immigration to the relevant area. It would be interesting to know if the Swedish population with I1b2 have such old specific and geographic traceable markers. As far as I know no such ancient Southern Swedish I1b2 motifs have been reported.


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                        Last edited by Wena; 9th March 2006, 07:12 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NormanGalway
                          Saying it is in very low concentrations does not mean it is not from "Sweden," a long time before "Sweden" even existed. I am I12B and have found other matches in Sweden -- not just one. And I am neither Sardinian nor Basque -- in fact, I share an unusual surname with a very ancient, and well-known, Swedish family.
                          Depends on what you mean by "ancient". Most inherited surnames in Sweden are less than 500 years old, and none is likely older than 1000 years. Furthermore, many of the "well-known" families in Sweden were started when Sweden was a great power in 14th to 17th century by immigrants from other parts of Europe, such as mercenaries and merchants from Scotland and the British Isles:

                          http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...eden/index.htm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mikey
                            I1b2, as far as I know, is a VERY rare clade.
                            It may be that I1b2 are rare on a global basis, but a frequency of 40 % on Sardinia and 6 % in the Basques clearly defines it.

                            A percentage of 0.6% in southern Sweden is minimal, and trying to make the connections between such a small group of people and an ancient Scandinavian culture that named the peninsula sounds like a form of megalomania on behalf of these few people.


                            Originally posted by Mikey
                            It's presence in Sweden is significant. There is nothing to indicate it comes from recent Italian immigrants.
                            I imagine the scientists writing that paper would be bright enough to note a pattern of "Swedes" with the last name "Angelini" or "Michelangelo."!

                            I agree with Eki that you cannot rely in the use of surnames to trace genes. Here in Norway we have very good examples of the Norwegianization of the names of both old and recent immigrants. Even from a closely related language as Swedish, the names have been changed to Norwegian forms for hundred of years. The Saami most probably preceded any other group of people to Scandinavia, but likewise many of the Saami names are changed to Norwegian names (via law). Much of the same may have happened in Sweden. You need to ask a Swedish historian and have to dig really deep into history to understand how names are used and changed. For most family names the archives are the limit on how far back you can do research, are you lucky that would be for a span of about 400 or 500 years. There are many uncertainties and traps: for instance it is widely known that there is a difference between social and biological fathers. The child may bear the name of the social father, but not his genes.


                            Originally posted by Mikey
                            What is your model for the spread of I1b2 to the few countries where it exists? How can you explain its presence in Sweden, but not Norway or Denmark or Germany? Why is it present in Normandy and S. France? Why is it so significant in Sardinia?
                            One person or a small group can have a large influence on the genetic pool, including hg I1b2 (M26) in South Sweden. I do not believe that genetic drift necessarily are results of massive expansions (as in wars) or planned cultural movements. Adventurous people, factors as hunger and poverty and other forms of insecurity or threat/violence are continuously factors for both small- and large-scale migrations.

                            Exponential population growths in the last hundred years are explanatory for why and how one or a few people migrating to Scandinavia were important for today’s genetic pool. A few hundred years back in time Scandinavia was very sparsely populated. Therefore the I1b2 observed in southern Sweden can have its origin in very few people migrating to that area, but more likely it originates from recent immigrations since it has not spread to other parts of Sweden. Or it may be part of early migration, but are about to get wiped out (e.g. low sperm counts or some fatal diseases in its bearers). Why it is significant in Sardinia is explained in the article Rootsi et.al. A small group of people isolated on an island explains it all.



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                            • #15
                              both of you are trying to express certitude

                              about something that is highly uncertain, and about which little is known.

                              It is beyond silly for you to make assertions like I12B is a "recent" arrival to Sweden. You simply do not know that. So I would relax a bit and try to keep an open mind. I assure you that while genetic genealogy is in its infancy is not the time to confidently make assertions like you have.

                              Note that I did NOT say that I12B was prevalent in Scandinavia.

                              However, it is not restricted to southern sweden. My matches also come from the swedish-speaking population of Finland and also in Karelia.

                              So try to "lighten up" as we say here in the States and enjoy the ride.

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