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Italian R1b1 - The Central Italian Refugium

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  • F.E.C.
    replied
    Originally posted by johnraciti
    David Faux of Ethnoancestry believes that much of the R1b in Italy is due to the settlement there by the Lombards. And then there's the short period of rule by Frederick Hohenstaufen and his father and sons, which would be more potential German genetic input in Randazzo (The 'Hohenstaufen' Castle).
    Hogwash. R1b is just too common and too widespread in Italy to be attributed only to the Germanics.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    The Lombards

    The Lombards (or Longobards) were a Germanic tribe whose origins were fabled to have been in the barbarian realm of Scandinavia. After centuries of obscurity during the long period of Roman domination in Europe, the Lombards began a concerted migration southeastwards to conquer new lands in southern Europe. By the sixth century the Lombards had emerged as new and powerful protagonists in the former heartland of the Empire. Pushing across the Danube to occupy Hungary (Pannonia) in the 520s, the Lombards subsequently invaded Italy in 568-569. Here they established a strongly militarized kingdom based on the fertile north Italian plains, but also extending into central and southern Italy. The northern kingdom endured for more than two centuries, before its conquest by Charlemagne; and even after this defeat, a Lombard state continued to exist in southern Italy until the eleventh century.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Lombard influences

    I agree with David Faux: The Lombard influence is of particular interest. Even to the present day, a Siculo-Gallic dialect exists in the areas where the Lombard colonies were the strongest, namely Novara, Nicosia, Sperlinga, Aidone and Piazza Armerina. The Siculo-Gallic dialect did not survive in other major Lombard colonies, such as Randazzo, Bronte and PaternĂ² (although they did influence the local sicilian vernacular).

    David Faux of Ethnoancestry believes that much of the R1b in Italy is due to the settlement there by the Lombards. And then there's the short period of rule by Frederick Hohenstaufen and his father and sons, which would be more potential German genetic input in Randazzo (The 'Hohenstaufen' Castle).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randazzo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carcere_randazzo.jpg

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  • vineviz
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    There is also a mtdna K group in FTDNA, though I don't know the details, someone else will tell you.
    Bill Hurst runs the mtDNA Haplogroup K Project, and you should certainly join.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K/

    I also encourage you to join the geographic projects associated with Siciliy and Italy.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily/
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy/

    K is not particularly common in Italy, but there is at least one other member in the Italy DNA Project with the same HVR1 results and several in the Sicily Project.

    Once you've joined at least one project, you should give some thought to upgrading your results to include HVR2. That might give you more insight into your haplogroup and will refine your matches at mitosearch.org and at smgf.org.

    Your HVR1 results occur in each of the major subclades of K (K1a, K1b, K1c, and K2a), and the HVR2 results might help sort out the difference.

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by sicily
    I have received the results of my maternal dna through the genographic project, my results 16224C,16311C,16519C are all rapresenting a lineage found in Ashkenazi jews.
    Your results are actually more consistent with a mostly-Gentile variety of mtDNA haplogroup K. In fact, you match my Aunt Stefania of southern Poland! (Actually, her daughter's son was the one tested.)

    Many FTDNA customers turn off matching on HVR1 only, because it results in so many uselessly distant "matches." But you should still see such matches listed by ancestry on your mtDNA Ancestral Origins tab.

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  • cacio
    replied
    sicily:

    your mutations are very common in Europe (not just Ashkenazi). mitosearch.org lists more than 100 matches (!). You should upload your results to mitosearch.org (there should be a button in your FTDNA page), and from there you can contact people if you find some that are from your area. But remember that a HVR1 match doesn't say much - it means several thousand years ago on average (possibly even 10,000 years or so). So usually no recent relation.

    There is also a mtdna K group in FTDNA, though I don't know the details, someone else will tell you.

    cacio

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    From Sicily haplogroup K

    I have received the results of my maternal dna through the genographic project, my results 16224C,16311C,16519C are all rapresenting a lineage found in Ashkenazi jews. I was born and raised in Sicily-comiso in the province of Ragusa, my father will test next. I have seen that there are two individuals on Family tree with the exact same sequence as mine but I do not know how to reach them. Any suggestion is welcome,
    Lina Forti

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  • F.E.C.
    replied
    One thing I've noticed in mt haplogroup T is a different geographical pattern among some of its subclades, please correct me if I'm wrong.

    It seems to me that T2 and T5 are rather common in both Eastern (here especially T2) and Western Europe, while they are very uncommon in the Middle East. Maybe does this reflect a more western origin for them?
    T* and T1, on the other hand, can be found in Asia Minor and farther East in Asia as well, I think.

    Another thing I've noticed is the quite different "weight" that haplogroup T has in the Italy project, compared to the Sicily project. Does it mean anything?
    Last edited by F.E.C.; 13 February 2007, 05:21 AM.

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  • cacio
    replied
    Vince:

    you are making a strong argument. I browsed, in the article you cite, the two small contributions about humans. Actually, they don't say much, other than there are very few known and studied sites in Italy for the LGM. But then this may be for lack of research. Plus, at least for N Italy, most of it would be now submerged in the Po plain, or underwater in the Adriatic. So direct evidence for people in Italy during the LGM is scarce. (The link has a lot of contributions regarding the fauna and flora of Italy in the period, which may be useful in determining the landscape, temperature and aridity).

    Given you hypothesis about Anatolia, I also rebrowsed Cinnioglu's article. I now notice that they make your point, that is, that R1b shows repeopling of Europe from two refugia, in Iberia and in Asia Minor. They also say that G2 also expanded at about the same time from Asia Minor. (They have STRs, but don't know how they base their assertion).

    Anyway, it seems everybody is making the case that Italy was essentially empty during the LGM. The case for the Y chromosome appears relatively strong then. I'd like later on to compare the relative freq of the various haplogroups in Anatolia and Central/Southern Italy. I think R1b is much more frequent in Italy than Anatolia. In the previous interpretation, this may be due to more recent J admixture in Anatolia, and northern/hiberian R1b in Central Southern Italy.

    Now, again, it remains to see what the mtdna says. As usual, there could have been a substitution of the Y chromosome, but it is unlikely that the mtdna was as well if people were living in Italy.

    Mmaddi:
    good point about T. Now, if the source for its origin is Sykes, this doesn't say much. Sykes placed the various "Eves" randomly in Europe (with a preference for touristically attractive locations like Tuscany and Veneto), while we now know that they didn't originate in Europe to start with. However, I have not seen anything about the possible origin for the various T lineages. Italy has a fair number of T's, so I think it is still an open question of where they come from, ie if they were in Italy during the LGM.

    cacio

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  • vineviz
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    Vince:

    thanks for the info - quite interesting.
    I'm still researching a lot of these questions myself, and I think that Mussi's book in an excellent English-language resource on Paleolithic Italy.
    http://worldcat.org/isbn/0306464632
    http://www.amazon.com/Earliest-Italy...e=UTF8&s=books


    I also just found this PDF, which I have not yet read but looks fascinating.

    http://clima.casaccia.enea.it/staff/...rticoli/31.pdf

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  • vineviz
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    Vince:

    thanks for the info - quite interesting. So you would explain the statement of Capelli et al (that of low matches with Iberia) with this double migration, that is, the fact that the Italian R1b is a mixture of Iberian and Eastern (Balcanic? Anatolian?) R1b. Which I think is probably the point you made with your graphs.
    Actually, I think that when Capelli looks more closely at R1b in Italy (as their paper seems to suggest he might) he will find that the bulk of R1b -as it exists today- arrived in Italy after the Paleolithic.

    If I were to speculate, I'd say that I think that a lot of R1b in southern Italy will be traced back to neolithic migrations from Anatolia, the Balkans, or elsewhere in Eastern Europe. I see very high frequencies of DYS393=12 in southern Italy, which almost certainly has Balkan or Anatolian origins. If it were indigenous to Italy, you would expect it to be distributed more evenly throughout Italy. The Capelli data show few haplotypes are shared between northern Italy and southern Italy, which is a problem if the age of R1bin Italy is 15,000 years or more.

    I think that much of R1b in northern Italy (which is most of it, actually) will be linked with historical migrations from central and northern Europe. All four Italians that I know who have taken S-series SNP tests have come back positive for S28 or S21, which are essentially central European subclades.

    I think that the remainder of R1b (which is a small amount) perhaps arrived in Italy from France during the late Upper Paleloithic, but given the pace of SNP discovery and deployment I don't hold out much hope of finding evidence on this front soon.

    I've mentioned elsewhere that the ASD that Capelli et al. calculated for R1b in Italy is lower than the ASD for J2. Normally, that would mean that R1b is younger than J2 or else arrived in multiple waves. Either way, it is strong evidence that R1b is not autochtonous.

    But for all that, I'll be the first to admit that there is much we don't know. And I'm far from an expert on Italy. Italy is the most genetically diverse country in Europe - and possibly one of the most frequently invaded/settled - and even the best studies done to date are not nearly detailed enough to answer all the questions we have.

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    Still, it seems really hard to believe that Italy was empty, or that its mtdna and Y dna have been wiped out by these later arrivals. Was Italy any colder than Iberia and the Balcans? (or Ukraine, where another refugium is possible?). Especially for the mtdna, I feel that there is some more to study. The proofs for an Iberian refugium for mtdna have been H1, H3 and V (I don't remember about U5). That still leaves many haplogroups, various H's, U's and T's.

    cacio
    I don't know how much this relates to the question of the population sparseness (or not) of Italy around the time of LGM, but perhaps this might throw some light on it.

    I am T5, according to FTDNA's classification of my HVR1/HVR2 results. My maternal line is from Basilicata, at least as far back as about 1817. I'm fairly sure it goes back more in time than that.

    There doesn't seem to be much information on T5, but I have found one webpage where there is what seems to be useful information about T in general and T5. This is at http://tinyurl.com/25pnzv - this is a page on the Univ. of Arizona website by a woman who is a psychology professor there.

    Here are quotes regarding T/T5 from that page:

    " 'T' refers to what many people (who are Sykes' groupies) refer to as clan mother Tara. Tara is believed to have lived around 17,000 years ago in Nothern Italy, although not everyone agrees with this estimate. Tara's people would have come from the Near East, and her descendents spread all over Europe....

    "T5 is one of the lineages that descended from T/Tara, and went a separate way from other subdivisions of T. Richards et al. use the criteria of additionally having a mutation from HSV1 at 153 (i.e. mutations at 126, 153, 294) to be classified as T5. According to familytreedna.com, T5 was a woman who would have lived closer to 10,000 years ago, and therefore likely participated in the Neolithic expansion with the arrival of agriculture (Tara descended from hunter/gatherers, like 85% of European ancestors). Note, however, this may be based on the estimate that a mutation occurs on average once every 10,000 years which may be wrong in many situations. Other researchers do not agree with the Richards et al. subdivisions of Haplogroup T. Most agree there is a clear T1 descendent and pattern, but do not agree on all of the others. T2 seems to have emerged as a clear lineage as well. One source of confusion for other lineages of T is over regions 292 and 296. I believe undifferentiated T's are usually labeled as T*, so in some people's notation, my pattern is T*. To add to the confusion, some people who were originally classified as T5 are being reclassified as T2, the latter of which usually have a mutatation in the control region that T5s do not. The reclassification is based on testing the entire mtDNA rather than just the control regions (see below). T5s appear to have many coding region mutations in common with T2. Few T5s have been fully sequenced in the published literature as of yet, leading to possibly false overclassification into T2."

    So, according to this woman, the original "T" woman lived in northern Italy about 17,000 ybp. I don't know what it says about the population density of Italy at that time, but given that T is found at about a 10% level among Europeans today, perhaps this gives an idea that the population density then was enough to finally thrive after LGM and spread throughout Europe.

    Mike
    Last edited by MMaddi; 12 February 2007, 02:42 PM.

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  • cacio
    replied
    Vince:

    thanks for the info - quite interesting. So you would explain the statement of Capelli et al (that of low matches with Iberia) with this double migration, that is, the fact that the Italian R1b is a mixture of Iberian and Eastern (Balcanic? Anatolian?) R1b. Which I think is probably the point you made with your graphs.

    Still, it seems really hard to believe that Italy was empty, or that its mtdna and Y dna have been wiped out by these later arrivals. Was Italy any colder than Iberia and the Balcans? (or Ukraine, where another refugium is possible?). Especially for the mtdna, I feel that there is some more to study. The proofs for an Iberian refugium for mtdna have been H1, H3 and V (I don't remember about U5). That still leaves many haplogroups, various H's, U's and T's.

    cacio

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  • vineviz
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    F.E.C.:

    I hope more research will be done in isolating an Italian refugium and its characteristics. People certainly lived in Italy during the LGM. It may have been the case that the UK was populated from males moving up from Spain, but Italy must have had an autochtonous component, whether they then moved north or not. (in fact, the alps may make it difficult to move north).
    Although Italy has been, according to Margherita Mussi, continually inhabited since about 25,000 years ago the population was extremely sparse. The central Appenine region was very cold until about 17,500 years ago and without the shelter of mountain caves (which were largely uninhabitable during the LGM) Italy would not have been a very hospitable place.

    The archaeological evidence suggests that the post-LGM population expansion was largely driven by immigrants from the east (via Puglia) and the west (via Liguria), not by growth of autochtonous Italian people.

    Moreover, the genetic evidence really offers no consolation. Studies of mtDNA and yDNA suggest no real good candidates for the modern survival of any Paleolithic Italian populations in appreciable numbers.

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  • cacio
    replied
    A very recent paper - Y chromosome genetic variation in the Italian peninsula is clinal -[...] by Capelli et al. (forthcoming molecular phylogenetics and evolution) seems to weigh in into our discussion about refugium. The paper provides some more data mostly on Central and south central Italy (about 700 observations).

    A suggestive paragraph though is the following: "The current data set provides a first frame for testing the genetic continuity from the Palaeolithic to the Mesolithic in Italy through the last ice age [... so far] not proposed for humans. [...] This could be due to the lack of resolution in the current markers [..] a possible candidate would be within R1xR1a1. [...] genetic variation [...] in Spain and Italy did not show significant difference. [...] only 28% of haplotypes within haplogroup P are shared between the two populations. This value is well below that estimated when comparing [..] Iberia and the british isles (47%)."

    I am not an expert on R1b, nor have I looked at the data. But how does the above statements relate to the ongoing new results about subgroups of R1b1c and the research some of you have been doing recently? (note the lack of comparison with eastern europe, the switching btw R1b and P, the lack of evidence on I1b, which is also another obvious candidate).

    cacio

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