Where can I find explanations about my results?

[dcschwartz]

Hello,
I got my Genographic results but I'm a little lost because the analysis that came with it doesn't tell me a whole lot.

I'm an Ashkenazi Jew so I was not surprised by the map which put my ancestors in the Eastern Meditteranean (M168 to M174 to M96 to M35), but what else can I read into these results? I know that this only tested my deep ancestors, such as 10,000 years ago, but what since then?

I guess this confirms a lot of the genetics articles which I've read which state that the level of admixture in Jewish populations was extremely low and the majority of modern Jews are descended from Ancient Jews, albeit with evolution affecting physical characteristics.

I understand that this project is testing my ancestor's route out of Africa, but I guess I want a little more explanation other than what they gave me.
What about my mDNA? I only got results from my Y Chromosome.
Thanks for any responses.

[Victor]

Hello,

Go to the webpages below and then follow the links. There aren't definitive answers to everything you want to know but you have to start somewhere. This new field of population genetics is highly dynamic and new information is coming out all the time. Prepare yourself for a long journey of discovery.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/DNA/hg/YCC_E3b.html

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_e3b.htm

Then visit the E3b project page so you can compare your results.

http://www.familytreedna.com/(kip03u3dj2mlltj4ecbbdp2r)/public/freemanDNAProject/index.aspx

Regards,

Victor

[M.O'Connor]

If you ordered just the 12 Y DNA numbers, you will have to pay for additonal tests and mtdna results...Look above on this page for "PRICING"

[robe3b]

Hello,
I got my Genographic results but I'm a little lost because the analysis that came with it doesn't tell me a whole lot.

I'm an Ashkenazi Jew so I was not surprised by the map which put my ancestors in the Eastern Meditteranean (M168 to M174 to M96 to M35), but what else can I read into these results? I know that this only tested my deep ancestors, such as 10,000 years ago, but what since then?

I guess this confirms a lot of the genetics articles which I've read which state that the level of admixture in Jewish populations was extremely low and the majority of modern Jews are descended from Ancient Jews, albeit with evolution affecting physical characteristics.

I understand that this project is testing my ancestor's route out of Africa, but I guess I want a little more explanation other than what they gave me.
What about my mDNA? I only got results from my Y Chromosome.
Thanks for any responses.

Hi,
It might be interesting for you to transfer your data from the Genographic Project to FamilyTree DNA. Then you may join the E3b project, and upgrade your Y DNA test from 12 to 25 markers, and at the same time, order a mtDNA test (HVR1 to start), all at a lower price as member of a group. Concerning your haplogroup, somebody told me that he thought that E3b entered the Jewish gene pool while the Jews (mainly belonging to haplogroup J) were living in Egypt.
Anyway, good luck in your search.

Roberto

[josh w.]

Dcschwartz, there are no "pure" or uniquely Jewish haplogroups or haplotypes. The Jewish population consists of many different haplogroups which entered the population at different points in history, from thousands of years before the establishment of the religion to the modern diaspora. Some common y dna haplogroups are J,Ria and your own E3b. However, most individuals in these haplogroups are not Jewish. Although many points of history could have involved the inflow of E3b, one possibility was the period well before the religion developed. It would be useful to get an mtdna test since some haplogroups are common among maternal lines, specifically K and N but also H,J and U5.

[tonyp]

Hello -- a most interesting article on the subject of Jewish heritage and genetic genealogy is located at www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm. This is part of the "Journal of Genetic Genealogy" website. It's entitled "A Mosaic of People: The Jewish Story and a Reassessment of the DNA Evidence" by Ellen Levy-Coffman. If you haven't already seen it, it should prove extremely enlightening and help to answer some of your questions.

[Victor]

Hi,
<clipped>
Concerning your haplogroup, somebody told me that he thought that E3b entered the Jewish gene pool while the Jews (mainly belonging to haplogroup J) were living in Egypt.

Roberto

This is one plausible explanation, Roberto. But it gets a little complicated when we consider the geographical distribution of all E3b subclades found within the Jewish gene pool (E3b1, E3b2 and E3b3) and even more when we consider the subclusters within E3b1 (alpha, beta and delta).

Maybe it was an aggregation that ocurred over a long period of time and in many places like it likely happened with the other haplogroups? After all, we're talking of a religious movement that through the centuries has been making new converts all over the world and the first candidates of course would be the haplogroups in their vicinity.

Saludos,

Victor

[Jim Denning]

Hello,
I got my Genographic results but I'm a little lost because the analysis that came with it doesn't tell me a whole lot.

I'm an Ashkenazi Jew so I was not surprised by the map which put my ancestors in the Eastern Meditteranean (M168 to M174 to M96 to M35), but what else can I read into these results? I know that this only tested my deep ancestors, such as 10,000 years ago, but what since then?

I guess this confirms a lot of the genetics articles which I've read which state that the level of admixture in Jewish populations was extremely low and the majority of modern Jews are descended from Ancient Jews, albeit with evolution affecting physical characteristics.

I understand that this project is testing my ancestor's route out of Africa, but I guess I want a little more explanation other than what they gave me.
What about my mDNA? I only got results from my Y Chromosome.
Thanks for any responses.

I know that this only tested my deep ancestors, such as 10,000 years ago, but what since then? ,
it also tested your dad when you get matches they might start telling you a story. dna testing in infantile 100,000 tested when we get 25,000,000 you 'll see a picture you 'll have matches with people from towns.

usually people migrated with family and town people.it is not uncommon for them to have familiar dna even in towns.
here is my numbers
e3b 24 13 10 16 18 11 12 12 13 11 30 16 9 9 11 11 26 14 20 33 14 16 16 17 9 11 19 19 17 12 17 19 31 34 11 10

eventualy you will see more
i have people with no matches but eventually some small scotish town will test and bingo one day 10 matches . this is why we need more people to test.hopefully this new push by pbs will get many to do it

[dcschwartz]

Clarification

Thank you for all your explanations. I guess I thought I knew more about DNA than I actually did. I have plenty of research to do.

However, I would like to share certain points of information which I believe a majority of you have incorrect:

It was stated in this thread when talking about Jews that it is only a religion. This, according to the evidence, is incorrect. It is both a non-missionary religion and an enthic group.

Assuming that the original Hebrews, Israelites, Judeans, or Jews, regardless of what you want to call them, were a single homogenous population or a semi-diverse tribe of Semites (or whatever you want to call it) with a common religion, they would have only married into their own ethnic group/religion in Biblical times. During the Diaspora, if they have intermarried with the groups with whom they came into contact, then they would have ceased to remain an ethnic group and would have become only a religion, albeit different from other religions which sought out converts. (Judaism actually makes it difficult for people to convert. Even in ancient times, it was a closed religion.)

Yet, genetic testing (which I will include below) has proven that the rate of intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews throughout the Diaspora was very low and Jews have managed to keep their DNA distinct from their host populations.

Other Genetic testings have found that the difference between Ashkenazi jews and Sephardic or Mizrahi Jews is minimal, meaning that very little genetic drift took place during the Diaspora and most Jews are genetically related. However, this does not mean that Ethiopian Jews and certain populations of Indian Jews are genetically Jewish since they were found to have converted sometime in the recent past.

Genetic testing also places Jews within the fertile crescent: Genetic tests have shown that Jews are related to Lebanese, Syrians, and Palestinians. More recent tests have shown this to be true, but have found that Jews are MORE CLOSELY related to Turks (from Turkey), Armenians, and Kurds.

So, while the rate of intermarriage in America is relatively high, up until now, Jews were both a closed religion and an ethnic group. The existence of non-genetically Jewish Jews does not change the fact that genetic testing has found this to be true.

As for the physical differences between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews, this can be explained by the process of evolution. Please see the attached files for proof of all that I have said. For those interested in this point, please see Jared Diamond's article "Who are the Jews?" This is not available online, but if someone were genuinely interested, I can scan the article and upload it later.
Thanks for listening, haha!

[josh w.]

Please read the Coffman article which challenges the notion of haplogroup "purity" among Jews. There were genetic inflows from the Greeks, Romans, Khazars and the "host" countries of the Diaspora (and probably more sources). The meaning of the term "non- genetic Jews" makes no theological or genetic sense.

[josh w.]

P.S. For believers, Judaism cannot be defined genetically or mohels would have gone out of business along time ago.

[dcschwartz]

With all due respect....

With all due respect, I believe that you are wrong.
While this article may say one thing, all recent articles (please see the previously given articles which have all been published within the last few years) on the subject matter have gone in the opposite direction. In fact, the Khazar model is outdated and has been relegated to the historical dustbin by modern genetic testing.

While i'm not claiming that there is such a thing as a "pure" Jew or even a pure-haplogroup, there is a genetic grouping which clearly shows that most Jews fall into something called an ethnic group, much like any other ethnic group. Are there such a thing as "pure" Italians or "pure" Greeks? I highly doubt it, but there is such a thing as ethnically or genetically Italian or Greek despite Persian, Germanic, or Slavic mixture. No ethnic group is genetically homogenous, why impose this unreasonable standard just because there has been a diaspora?

It is really logical: a starting group is dispersed, there is a tendency not to intermarry, there is genetic testing which says that intermarriage was rare, there is genetic affinity to other groups of the Northern Fertile Crescent, then the only possible conclusion is that this dispersed group remains a genetically linked group.

As for the Mohel, I'm not sure I follow. Circumcision is about culture and religion. If the father is Jewish, the baby is still circumcised so I'm not exactly sure what you meant.

Again, all due respect given.

[josh w.]

We agree that Jews are an ethnic group. However ethnicity does not imply genetic homogeneity any more than does nationality. Here are some problems with a search for "genetic Jews".
1. The only possible candidate for a "Jewish" Ydna haplogroup is J1. It is the only haplogroup common among Jews that can somewhat unambiguously be traced back to what is now Israel. Only around 20% of Jews are J1. All other haplogroups could have entered the Jewish population in Europe, North Africa or other parts of Asia. If a J1 definition is used, over 99% of "genetic Jews" are in fact Muslim.
2. The majority of Jews come from mtdna haplogroups that are non-Israeli in origin.
3. Both Ydna and mtdna combined cover less than 1% of our genome. These two lines inform us about two of perhaps hundreds of thousands of our ancestors. Over 99% of our ancestral lines lie on our autosomes or non-sexual chromosomes. It is quite possible for someone to have a Ydna haplogroup of J1 and have many if not most ancestors from elsewhere. For example, the genes for physical appearance are on the autosomes. If a Jewish J1 has light brown hair or fair skin or blue eyes how could they still be a "Genetic Jew". Conversely, someone from ydna haplogroup R could have the majority of their ancestors from Israel but they would be a "non- genetic Jew."
To be continued.

[josh w.]

I left my religious comments for a second post since they touch on areas that are inherently controversial and where I am probably the last person who should be making comments in this area. But here goes:
It seems to me that a distinction between "genetic" and "non genetic" Jews can lead in the direction of oneupmanship if not worse. The distinction essentially serves as a proxy for "original Jews" vs. "converts". The problem with the latter distinction is that almost all Jews are descendents of converts (or converts themselves). According to the historical evidence, Judaism began among hill people in eastern Canaan.
From there it spread to the rest of Canaan by conversion. The Old Testament contains many conversion events. The modern Jewish disinterest in conversion is probably a result of the Diaspora experience and
was not present in ancient times.. Only direct descendents of Judean hillbillies have the right to consider themselves as genetic Jews.

As for my comments about the Mohel: From a religious perspective one is not simply born a Jew. The covenant with God must be established afresh with each new generation. For males, the ritual of the Bris is required for one to begin to think of oneself as a Jew with the ritual of the Bar Mitzvah required along the way. For females it is the Bat Mitzvah. The notion of genetic Jews runs in total opposition to the need for the covenant to be established afresh.
(I am completely secular and do not have a dog in this hunt).

[dcschwartz]

articles

I'm not going to pretend that I understand what all this talk about haplogroups means because I made it clear in the original post that I'm more of a history person than a genetics person. Everything that I've been speaking of so far would fall into the category of history than it would of genetics.
However, what you are saying does not sync with the historical genetics articles which I have presented. Do you have an explanation for that? I cannot argue on your points because I simply don't understand what they mean.

As for the bit about all Jews being converts, I think for simplicity's sake, we can assume that all those who lived in the Ancient land of Israel during the reign of the Israelites and the Judeans were Jewish. Even if they werent homogenous, they were at the very least related and underwent a process of "Judaization" much in the way that other similiar but non-identical groups have become more homogenous through nationalization.
Thanks.