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  • Viking Long Boat Burial / DNA

    News article...Viking Longboat burial/ possible DNA.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3672031/from/RSS/

    This should be interesting if they get results.

  • #2
    Viking burial

    I sure hope they have positive results in their testing of the viking's remains.

    Do you know if any of the bog men found over the past few decades have been tested for their DNA? (Your posting brought the bog men to mind--I've not researched this).

    Comment


    • #3
      There has been discovered what possible is Saami Y-DNA from a 1000 year old cementary in Sweden connected with viking kings.

      http://www.archaeology.su.se/pdf/agsamman.pdf

      Search for the word "Saami".

      Comment


      • #4
        I am not aware of any Bog-Man tests.

        Though I will say this.

        I really do wonder when I hear that an bog person has been found with his throat cut or a rope around his neck..and they suggest it was sacrificial.?

        More to my thinking would be robbery. Or a Clan/Tribal murder thing. The bodies were more or less dumped in a wet land or lake/pond which firmed to peat over the ages.

        ..................

        They will try to find more about this Salt mine Mummy. this would be interesting too.

        http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publ...le_12795.shtml

        Comment


        • #5
          Ancient DNA may possible help us to understand not only the relationship between the women in the Viking Longboat, they may add to the understanding of the possible old genetic motifs that must exist in the Old Norse people. In Norway it is assumed that people from the old Viking culture – the Norse - are of a very old origin, meaning that they migrated to Scandinavia after the last ice age. In spite of this assumption and as far as I know there are no old genetic motifs that support this theory.


          The article on “Acquired or inherited prestige?” and the findings of Anders Götherstrom (2001) in Svealand are very interesting in several ways. Not only does the findings support that the family structures of the Viking have been open, but it also supports the Norse saga stories that the relations between the Saami people and the Old Norse have been important and that the two people intermarried. The Viking families could be multi ethnic. Professor Else Mundal (University of Bergen) has pointed this out in the following article. Both heroes and kings of Norway married with Saami and the best known is King Haraldr Hárfagri that married with Snefridr, the daughter of the Saami King Svasi, the couple got four sons. There were additionally relationships and intermingling between the different cultures on many other societal levels.

          http://www.arts.usyd.edu.au/departs/...346-mundal.pdf


          The same seems to have happened in Sweden and Götherstrom supports the assumptions with DNA in the referred article, that the ancestors of today’s Saami people and the people in central Sweden had close and intimate relationships.

          Referred from the article: “When the Y-chromosomal alleles of the DYS388 marker were compared with a modern Swedish and a modern Saami reference sample, one of the alleles at the Alsike cemetery was found only in the Saami reference and not in the Swedish reference.”

          Referred from the conclusion on the subject of Götherstom:
          “It simply means that at some point during the buried kin’s history there has been a deliberate or non-deliberate sexual reproduction with somebody who has the same male ancestor as modern Saami people. For this to happen at all, some people from the northern parts must have had contact with the upper class Early Medieval society in central Svealand.”


          The brainteasers are:

          1) Why is the present frequency of Saami Y-chromosomal DNA so low in southern Scandinavia in spite of the close relationships between the two groups over thousands of years?

          2) Is it possible that at least one Old Norse genetic motif exists but have not yet been discovered in science? Or have I simply ignored such knowledge?

          3) Is it so that the Black Death and other Plagues in mediaeval ages made such a great impact on the genetic pool in Norway that most traces of both the Old Norse genetic motifs and the Saami genes in the southern part was more or less wiped out?

          Studies in Norway:
          There have been historical studies of Ole Jørgen Benedoctow on the effects of the Black Plague on the population structure in Norway. This plague started the mid 1300, the last victim died in 1654 and the majority of the victims were in densely populated areas in the southern and central part of Norway. In 1470 the number of dead was 210.000 of a total Norwegian population of 350.000 and the survivors were most often left in a very weak health condition. Another Norwegian historian Erik Opsahl have studied the immigration patterns to Norway under and after the Black Death and found that the immigration was immense in Norwegian terms in the Middle Ages (i.e. from about 1350) and that most of the immigrants were German, Dutch, Scots and Danes.

          At least these findings makes sense of both the lack of Old Norse motifs and Saami genes in the southern Norwegian gene pool, and additionally it explains the genetic homogeneity between people in the southern parts of Scandinavia, the Dutch, Scots, Danes and the Dutch. This homogeneity is very well illustrated by Cavalli-Sforza, L. L. et al.(1994):

          http://www.pnas.org/content/vol98/is...2304540002.gif

          Additionally there may be other explanations for the lack of really Old Norse genetic motifs in Scandinavia.

          In Azov near the Black Sea in Russia there is found remains of a much older, but very similar Viking culture as the Scandinavian. Thor Heyerdahl and company started excavations in the search for the origin of “Odin” who they believed must have been a proto-Slavonic king. Here in Norway the main controversy have been if Odin were a real king or a God, questions concerning different interpretations of the Norse Sagas and Snorre Sturlasson. These disputes are not nearly as interesting as the facts and existence of the archaeological remains of an old Viking culture from before year 0 to 100 AD that is preserved at a museum in Azov. These facts and the results from several genetic studies generate some questions.

          4) Did the Old Norse Vikings migrate to Scandinavia from the east around year 0 to 200 AD?

          5) May such migrations explain the relatively high frequency of R1a in Scandinavia and the lack of genetic motifs of the Old Norse?


          Old or ancient DNA may be helpful in answering some of these questions.
          Last edited by ; 20 February 2006, 05:28 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Wena
            Ancient DNA may possible help us to understand not only the relationship between the women in the Viking Longboat, they may add to the understanding of the possible old genetic motifs that must exist in the Old Norse people. In Norway it is assumed that people from the old Viking culture – the Norse - are of a very old origin, meaning that they migrated to Scandinavia after the last ice age. In spite of this assumption and as far as I know there are no old genetic motifs that support this theory.
            Snorri's Ynglinga saga says that before moving to Sweden Odin lived in the Great Swithiod. Through Swithiod ran a river named Tanais which fell into the Black Sea. Odin also had "great posessions" in Turkland. This happened when "the Roman chiefs went wide around in the world, subduing to themselves all people".

            http://oaks.nvg.org/hk1.html

            I think Tanais means the river Danub which falls in to the Black Sea in modern day Romania. Turkland most likely means Turkey which lies south of the Black Sea. Danube also runs through the Balkans where the "Viking" haplogroup I is said to have sheltered during the Ice Age.

            The Romans conquered the areas in Romania in the year 106 AD. Couldn't it
            be that the Norse arrived Scandinavia only shortly before this, and not
            shortly after the Ice Age?

            Comment


            • #7
              Maps in the following article also show two "hot spots" with high concentration of Hg I north of the Black Sea:

              http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v75_Semino.pdf

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wena
                3) Is it so that the Black Death and other Plagues in mediaeval ages made such a great impact on the genetic pool in Norway that most traces of both the Old Norse genetic motifs and the Saami genes in the southern part was more or less wiped out?
                Wena-

                Being of solely Danish and Norwegian background, I read with great interest your post. In my naivete, it had not occured to me that groups other than Danes and Swedes would have occupied the vacuum created by the black plague. Being a rank novice in the field of genetic geneology I wonder on a couple of points:

                1) How much of the migration to Norway could be "back-migration" from the Viking colonies in Scotland, Ireland, and England returning to the "unfortunate" land opportunities presented by the loss of population? I had assumed that the number of one and two step matches I have in Ireland and England were due to Viking settlement. Now to find it might be the other way around? Interesting.

                2) I know that studies have been conducted on Icelandic DNA. Given that Iceland was established by "Old Norse" with perhaps some maternal DNA from the UK, would not Icelandic Y DNA be a good indicator of the "Old Norse?" Or have the years of intermingling with the rest of Scandinavia diluted that somewhat?

                Again, thanks for an interesting post and links.

                Fred

                Comment


                • #9
                  I was surprised to find some families in Scotland were Norse Background. The MacDonald Clan for one. How Scottish can you get?

                  http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...cles/norse.htm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No single Viking haplogroup

                    During the viking age there were three main groups of Vikings. And their
                    dominant haplogroup might be different and very much influenced by from whom they took their slaves (called "treller"). On every farm the number of slaves by far outnumbered the ruling class and the interbreeding happend rapidly

                    The Danish Vikings ruled Denmark, South Norway (Oslofjord) and Western Sweden (Bohuslaen) and had the English Channel as their area of dominace.
                    They most likely brought a lot of slaves over from England.
                    The burial ship from the Oslofjord will most likely carry "Danish" genes

                    The Swedish Viking had Baltics Sea as their home base and used Russia & Baltics as their source of slaves.

                    The 3rd group is the Norwegian West Coast Vikings who were fighting the others and to avoid the Danish had their focus west on the North Sea, Orkney Islands, Iceland and the Irish Channel. Dublin was established as slave port by these vikings. So the vikings did not bring a lot of gene material to Ireland. They took it FROM Ireland to West Coast of Norway, Iceland, Shetland and Orkneys.

                    There are very few written records on what took place with the Vikings at this time, but Arabic history writers in Spain (working for the emir) has some interesting stories about extensive Viking raids (coming from Ireland) towards Spain and Portugal in the period the period 840-900. They describes raids with a lot of hostages beeing taken. Many of these slaves were
                    brought back to West Coast of Norway. They also brought a lot of Irish slaves to Jewish slavetraders who sold them to the arabs in Spain. In addition groups of Vikings settled in Spain. North west Spain and south of Sevilla are mentioned.

                    I'm from the Avaldsnes area in Norway (old west coast viking centre) were the blondes are much more scarse than other parts of Scandinavia. I'm myself have dark hair and brown eyes and belongs to the R1b haplogroup

                    My opinion the R1b is as much a Viking haplogroup as I

                    Food for thought: Check out chapter 3.2 in
                    http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/ednap.pdf
                    Quote
                    The haplogroup composition of each population and haplogroup diversities
                    are represented in Table 3. The highest diversity value was found in Norway

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Augvald
                      ....

                      My opinion the R1b is as much a Viking haplogroup as I

                      [/B]

                      Being a Viking is a cultural affiliation, not a genetic affiliation. Any individual of any haplogroup could have been a Viking.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Greetings everybody....

                        It's interesting reading about the plagues and what they did to Norway. When I was researching blood types, I learned that Type A evolved so that humans could gain immunity to diseases that come from human crowding. Not coincidentally Norway and Sweden have some of the highest concentrations of type A blood on the planet, along with SE Europe. Both regions I know are high in Y haplogroup I. When I discovered that I was haplogroup I, it seemed really cool since I'm infatuated with all things Norse. Although there is no Scandinavian ancestory on my Dad's side of the family, I'm pretty confident now that my Y ancestory came from some Viking or Saxon who landed in England long ago and sired the line of Mead's that I come from. Kinda co-incidental I should have that last name.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Augvald
                          During the viking age there were three main groups of Vikings.
                          The Danish Vikings ruled Denmark, South Norway (Oslofjord) and Western Sweden (Bohuslaen) and had the English Channel as their area of dominace.
                          They most likely brought a lot of slaves over from England. The burial ship from the Oslofjord will most likely carry "Danish" genes [/B]
                          Hi Augvald, thank you for sharing your knowledge about the Viking groups.

                          You mention that the burial ship from the Oslofjord will most likely carry "Danish" genes and I have to ask you if the Danish genes are specific enough to separate them from other genes in northwestern Europe?

                          If so, what particular genes are you referring to?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Vikings and genetic diversity

                            Hi all.

                            Thanks for the link to the Snorre Sturlasson Saga, Eki. That is what Thor Heyerdahl and partners hypothesized before digging up the archaeological evidence in Azov: That the proto-Slavonic king Odin and his people flew to Scandinavia when the Romans conquered the areas around Azov and the Black Sea. Snorre Sturlasson wrote something like that in his Saga, but most Norwegian historians doubt that the text should be interpreted literally, and hold that Odin was a God. They use the ambiguity in the text of Snorre for all that it is worth so to speak, probably because they want to keep the Viking culture exclusively Scandinavian. After all it is important to remember that the Viking culture have played an important part of the political agenda in the building of Norway as a nation around and after 1905, myths that have become over-evaluated part of the identity in Norway and for many Scandinavians.

                            It is interesting however that the Saami people are left out of the Viking history and often and mistakenly have been contrasted to the Scandinavian culture and people.

                            The Saami people have very old specific genetic markers as evidence of their truly Nordic origin and are one of the few people globally where genes can be traced to location. The Saami people’s origin is in Scandinavia and the Kola Peninsula. Originally they inhabited a much larger area in the northwestern corner of Europe than today, down to Karelia and possible as far south as Latvia. As other isolated populations in Europe (e.g. the Basques, Icelandic, Sicilians, Finish) the Saami are what researchers often call “genetic outliers” in the European genetic landscape. Meaning several things:

                            1) The genetic diversity among the Saami people is very low, i.e. the number of haplogroups represented is lower than in other European populations. They are less genetically mixed up.

                            2) The frequencies in the Saami population of a few specific mtDNA haplogroups are very high. The total frequency of hg U5 and hg V are found to be around 90% (Tambets et.al. 2004). http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=table&id=TB1

                            3) The long presence in a particular geographical area with long periods of isolation can explain why the Saami have developed many specific genetic motifs within for instance haplogroup U5, V, D5, N3 and I. An example is the very old “Sami motif” is U5b1 with the mutations 16144, 16189 and 16270.

                            The most frequent Y-chromosomal haplogroups in the Saami are N3, I and R1a. Totally these three hg makes up nearly 80% of the Saami genetic pool. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=table&id=TB2


                            The Saami were Vikings
                            These specific genetic motifs will show where the Saami people have been and the new genetic science have taught us that the Saami have been Viking too.

                            In the context of the estimated age of the Saami genes and culture the Viking culture is rather recent. Additionally, we know that there was close and intimate contact between the Norse and the Saami. One should expect to find Saami genes wherever the Vikings went.

                            The Saami were Vikings, culturally and in action i.e. meaning that they participated in expeditions (and probably also raids) and was expert builders of Viking boats and shared much cults, rites, culture and genes with the people in the rest of Scandinavia. The cultures borrowed from each other. I do not know if the Saami were part of all the different groups of Vikings in Scandinavia mentioned by Augvald, but from archaeological and genetic evidence it seems reasonable that they where Swedish and Norwegian Vikings. I will also add to this knowledge about Viking diversity that there are several different groups of Saami people. The Sea Saami people obviously were the great boat builders of the north.

                            I totally agree with Rossi that states that being a Viking was a cultural affiliation rather than a genetic one. The Vikings have too often and mistakenly been mixed-up with some sort of a racial category. There were many different haplogroups connected with the Vikings, some very unexpected ones (as for instance haplogroup Q) in addition to most of the other haplogroups frequent between the Black Sea north Western Europe.

                            Here is an example of typical unexpected haplogroups connected with the Vikings, from an article in the Journal of Genetic Genealogy (2005) of Ellen Levy-Coffman. This is referred from her article:

                            ”Haplogroup Q is rare in European populations as well. It occurs in low percentages in Hungary (2.6%) and much higher percentages in Siberia (Tambets et al. 2004). It can be found among populations in Norway and the Shetland Islands of Scotland where many Norwegian Vikings settled…It appears that Norwegians/Shetlanders and Ashkenazi Jews possess the highest percentages of haplogroup Q of any populations in Europe – a rare link between two very different populations who may share a common ancestor from Central Asia or Eastern Europe. Interestingly, Scandinavians and Shetlanders also possess high levels of haplogroup R1a1 as well, perhaps some of it originating from Central Asian sources (Faux, private correspondence). David Faux, a researcher examining the Shetlander’s DNA and possible Central Asian links, notes the following:

                            The best evidence we have to date is that, although not investigated scientifically, that Q and K* arrived with R1a from the same population source in the Altai region of Russian Siberia…If this is true, then it is very unusual that there does not seem to be any Q or K along the overland pathways to Norway (e.g., in Western Russia) – but there is Q, along with R1a, in the region of Kurdistan, and among a significant percentage of Ashkenazi Jews. Faux further hypothesized that the homeland of Norse Q lies somewhere in the populations of Siberia, such as with the Selkups (66.4% Q and 19.1% R1a) or the Kets (93.7% Q), or among the populations of the Altai mountain system extending through Mongolia, Kazakhstan and Russia (Tambets et al. 2004).”

                            These are interesting connections. Did Q come from the east with Odin and his people?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Luke M
                              When I was researching blood types, I learned that Type A evolved so that humans could gain immunity to diseases that come from human crowding. Not coincidentally Norway and Sweden have some of the highest concentrations of type A blood on the planet, along with SE Europe. Both regions I know are high in Y haplogroup I. When I discovered that I was haplogroup I, it seemed really cool since I'm infatuated with all things Norse.
                              You are right. As many other Norwegians I have blood type A+. It is a very frequent type of blood here.

                              Being Norse is a question of definition I guess. As far as I know there are no old genetic motifs for any particular Old Norse people. Most probably the ones that are called Norse are the people that migrated to Scandinavia around year 0. Blood typeA+ are not of Norse origin, since these groups of peoples came from areas in the east where this blood type is less frequent.

                              I am not sure, but I do not think that A + is related to any particular genetic haplogroup. Please correct me if I am wrong.
                              Last edited by ; 25 February 2006, 07:14 AM.

                              Comment

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