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Etruscan DNA?

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  • #76
    Cacio, Methinks my mother's father side of the family has some curious history. I do know for a fact that my grandfather's brother was a professed "warlock". He practiced some sort of sorcery. He came to this country around the time my grandfather did.

    Maybe the orphaned infant was given the surname Deviato because the birth of the child initiated a deviation from the family line. And I also think it has a symbolic significance as well, that many of the descendents would also deviate in some way. Maybe my speculation is a bit goofy but sometimes the bizarre turns out to be true. I wish however I could learn more about that last name.

    Do you know anything about the surname Caranfa? That is my great grandmother's last name on my mother's side.

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    • #77
      Caccio, thanks for your continually insightful, accurate posts. You are a credit to the board, and your knowledge of history is very valuable to all of us.

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      • #78
        Surnames

        One important note on surnames is that

        (1) misspellings

        (2) dialect

        and

        (3) long-forgotten meanings

        all play important roles.

        For example, even in Italy (forget about Ellis Island for a moment), transcription errors were common. A surname could change by one letter, changing the meaning profoundly.

        Secondly, words like, (I think, caroso or rosso become caruso or russo in dialect). In those instances, (unless I'm mistaken), the dialect words also have a meaning in "proper" Italian. So, which meaning applies?

        Thirdly, SO many surnames have changed meanings profoundly since they initially affixed in the 1500-1600s.

        Examples: bracchiante (laborer) is now bracchiale in Italian. (Something like that, my Italian is way rusty).

        The surname "Porco", which means "pig" in modern Italian, was not given to fat people as a nickname, or even swineherds, but to a sect of Waldensians in Calabria who believed taking self-effacing names was a sign of Christian piety (they also whipped themselved).

        So, in sum, do your research very very thoroughly.

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        • #79
          Etruscan:
          so your ancestor specialized in 'malocchio' (=bad spell, lit. bad eye)? Not as uncommon as one may think, back then... (and now too).

          As for Caranfa, it doesn't ring a bell. The website shows a small cluster centered somewhere in the mountains of Abruzzo (was that where she came from?). It sounds similar to the more common Carafa, which has a long history (I believe one Carafa branch was a noble family, which gave birth to cardinals and even a pope). So one may hypothesize that Caranfa is a local Abruzzi spin-off of Carafa.

          As for Mikey's comment, that's absolutely correct. Italian dialects could be extremely different, as different as, say, Italian and French, and often not mutually intelligible. It's not just a matter of accent, the grammar and the word can be different. Now everybody understands and tends to speak standard Italian, but if, say, a Sicilian were to speak strict dialect, I probably would not understand without some training.
          cacio

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          • #80
            Mikey, problem is I cannot at this time do 'careful' research. I am studying things right now on the surface level...I have 3 young girls and find it very difficult to focus on anything like this in depth due to limited time on the internet. When I am able, I will do more research. I am aware that name misspellings and changes could have occured over time. However, there are some knowledgeable people on the board here who can give me some ideas about my nagging questions in the meantime. Thanks Cacio and others so far. Cacio your info about "Caranfa" could be right on the money. My ggrandmother's last name could have been misinterpreted through Ellis Island, I will ask my Aunt about it. Grazie!!!

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            • #81
              a little news from Italy ..I thought you might like this

              http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/...2_1121483.html

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              • #82
                Originally posted by M.O'Connor
                a little news from Italy ..I thought you might like this

                http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/...2_1121483.html
                Very interesting my Irish friend

                war chariots, priest-kings...it seems like they weren't an Italic people...they were Hittites!

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                • #83
                  I don't know what it will mean?

                  My brief understanding of Italy is... it was inhabited by different people. Italians, Greeks, phoenecians, and tribes to the north, and others i am sure I am not aware of.

                  Then the Romans ended up dominating the area.

                  I'll have to read up on the Hittites...my time-frames are out of wack.

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                  • #84
                    M. O'Connor,

                    obviously I was kidding: Hittites lived in an area roughly corresponding to Anatolia and N. Syria.

                    IMHO the interesting point about this new archeological discovery is that it further shows the "connection" Indoeuropean peoples mantained even thousands years after they moved from their Eastern homeland: when I read about the Sabine priest-king and his war chariot, thinking to the Hittites (and the Celts?) was automatical in my mind.

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                    • #85


                      http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/05...k-between.html

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                      • #86
                        No problem with the kidding thing...I'm a little out of my league in the history department.

                        I don't know how dependable this article is..a lot of things get turned on their ear in time. So i would take a salt shaker where ever I go to read something.

                        http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/...6_1164259.html

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                        • #87
                          Ciao again, I do not have alot of time, which is why I ask if anyone would know about the Roma people. Haplogroup H, which is my group, is find often in the Roma people. Also, I am H, but I see others are H*, H1, H2, etc...what does the asterisk signify and the numbers...grazie!

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by F.E.C.
                            Very interesting my Irish friend

                            war chariots, priest-kings...it seems like they weren't an Italic people...they were Hittites!
                            Have you read Virgil's Aeneid?

                            It features chariot warfare in Italy.

                            Apparently Virgil's fiction got the tech stuff right.

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                            • #89
                              Etruscan:

                              regarding haplogroup H: Y-chromosome (that is _male_ line) haplogroup H is found in India, and so also among the Roma, who came originally from India. However, you are probably mtDNA (that is, female line) haplogroup H, not Y-chromosome haplogroup H. It is confusing because both Y-chromosome and mtdna haplogroup use the same letter names.

                              Mtdna haplogroup H is the most common haplogroup in Europe (>50% Europeans have it). So that's the usual result for a European, and it is not surprising that you have it, since your mother's line comes from Europe.
                              Usually, without further tests, it is not possible to establish which subgroups of haplogroup H one belongs to. If one wants to buy further test, they can establish which one of a dozen of subgroups of H (i.e. H1, H2 etc) one belongs to. The asterisk after a letter (like H*) means that one belongs to haplogroup H, but not to a known subgroup of haplogroup H (that is, not to H1 nor H2 etc.). Usually, it is because scientists still haven't found all possible subgroups of a haplogroup. Often, after more observations and more research become available, a new subgroup is found in which to include observations that were not initially assigned to any subgroup.

                              cacio

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                              • #90
                                MOConnor:
                                thanks for the suggestion on the article. I read it. The article does some fancy statistical analysis on the data extracted by the Bernesi et al paper discussed at the beginning of this thread. That paper showed that the ancient etruscan skeletons analyzed had mtdna sequences that appeared broadly speaking European or Mediterranean, but not particularly related to any modern population. This new paper does additional statistical analysis that seems to confirm the conclusion: the mtdna of the modern tuscans does not seem to descend from that of the Etruscans. But no other modern population seems to be descendent from the Etruscan either.

                                Among the possible explanations that the paper suggests: 1) the female lines simply died out, because of population replacement 2) the samples were from a smaller elite not necessarily representative of the whole etruscan population 3) while the female lines died out, in a patrilinear society the male lines survived, but there is no way of knowing this because it is not possible to test ancient Y dna.

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