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  • F.E.C.
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    But in Latin it meant the third meaning, to throw. (And in modern Italian we still have the word proiettile=bullet).
    Cacio,
    in modern Italian too "proiettare" means "to throw" as well
    Last edited by F.E.C.; 10 May 2006, 11:01 AM.

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  • cacio
    replied
    MMaddi:
    thanks for the suggestion, that seems the right explanation. In modern Italian, proiettare really only has the second meaning of "show a movie, slide etc." (and its past participle is "proiettato"). But in Latin it meant the third meaning, to throw. (And in modern Italian we still have the word proiettile=bullet). So it must be either a dialectal use, or a fancy invention of some Latin scholar.
    If you go to Italy, you'll see that while everybody understand and speaks standard Italian, the dialects can be as different as separate languages.
    cacio

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Meaning of "proietto"

    Originally posted by cacio
    Etruscan:
    this is an interesting story. I had not thought about the meaning of Deviato. I am from the North, and there "deviato" only means "deviated" in the main sense of "turned away from the main road". Since I happened to be in my university library, I checked a couple of books about Italian surnames I had looked at in the past. None talks about the name "Deviato" (being so rare, I imagine). They talk extensively about the surnames given to foundlings, listing among the common ones Esposito (=exposed. Naples area), Proietti (as cited by Maddi. Must be a dialectal word, since I can't think of its meaning), Ventura (=fortune. in the East), Innocenti (=innocent, in Florence), Amore (=Love), Diodato (=god given), and others (but as said not Deviato). Interestingly, the books say that at some point (one book says in 1869, another in 1929, wonder when...) a law was passed forbidding to assign a name that could hint at the foundling condition, meaning that after that date foundling were assigned common regular names (like say Rossi or the like). Up until the middle of the XX century, though, kids whose parents were not known had a dreaded "NN" (=nessuno, nobody) in the "parents" entry in their birth certificates.

    cacio
    I'm not an native Italian speaker and I'm trying to learn a little before a trip to Sicily in September. In terms of a translation of "proietto," I believe it roughly translates as "thrown away." I'm looking in my Italian dictionary. They have several definitions for the verb "proiettare":
    1. to project; 2. to show, screen; 3. to throw, cast, project

    You're right about this being a surname that stigmatized abandoned children later in life. This was the surname assigned to abandoned infants in Mezzojuso. However, in Termini Imerese on the north coast of Sicily, they had a much more humane way to deal with abandoned infants. There, the babies were given to married women who took them in and raised them as their own. They were given the surname of the woman or her husband, although it was noted on death records that the children's parents were unknown.

    Mike

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by Etruscan
    wow! Thank you Mike for this info. This is very very interesting. The years you give for this "proietto" is right on target on with the time this occured in my family tree. What would you recommend that I do to find out more info, if that is at all possible? My 2 Aunts do not know much about their father's side of the family. Many of his brothers and sisters had children and these children live near Naples as do their children. Others live in New England, I believe, but not one person can give any more info than I have given you.
    You are probably in the same position as me, in that the records will not help you much. If you do want to look in the records, you should go to www.familysearch.org, which is where you will find all the records (in the original Italian) that have been microfilmed and are available here in the U.S. This is the genealogy website of the Mormon church, who, for their own theological reasons go around the U.S. and the world microfilming vital records and other records in government offices and churches. It's generally the case that the Italian churches by and large don't cooperate with the Mormons or for that matter, American genealogists, but the Mormons do have an extensive collection of Italian civil records. You don't have to be a Mormon to use their family history resources.

    First thing on www.familysearch.org is to find the Family History Center nearest to you. Then search the library on familysearch.org for the town where your foundling ancestor was born. Your search will show you what records from that town have been microfilmed. Then go to the Family History Center near you and order the microfilms that cover the town and year you're interested in. You pay $5.50 per microfilm to rent and view it at that Family History Center. You have 5 weeks to view it, take notes and make copies to keep before it's sent back to Salt Lake City. You can also pay another $5.50 and renew it for another couple of months. A second renewal for $5.50 makes it an indefinite loan that will stay at that Family History Center.

    Of course, all this is premised on you knowing the town where your foundling ancestor was born. And if you do find his birth record, all it will probably tell you is that he was abandoned at birth. As I said above, this would put you in the same position as me. The only recourse at that time is to find a paternal line male descendant of this ancestor and test his yDNA and hope that someday you will find a match with someone with ancestors from this same town.

    Mike

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  • cacio
    replied
    Etruscan:
    I forgot about the mtdna question. I'm not an expert in the area, however 16519 is probably the most common mutation and you probably have hundreds if not thousands of matches in mitosearch. Some companies (eg FTDNA) offer tests for one of the dozen or so subgroups of haplogroup H. This is not found in the mutations of HVR1 or HVR2 (although knowing HVR2 may help), so they have to look directly in the coding region of the mtdna. Said that, I don't know exactly how much is known about the origin of each of these subgroups- so I think other H-people (which I am not, I'm U1a) will be able to tell you more.
    cacio

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  • cacio
    replied
    Etruscan:
    this is an interesting story. I had not thought about the meaning of Deviato. I am from the North, and there "deviato" only means "deviated" in the main sense of "turned away from the main road". Since I happened to be in my university library, I checked a couple of books about Italian surnames I had looked at in the past. None talks about the name "Deviato" (being so rare, I imagine). They talk extensively about the surnames given to foundlings, listing among the common ones Esposito (=exposed. Naples area), Proietti (as cited by Maddi. Must be a dialectal word, since I can't think of its meaning), Ventura (=fortune. in the East), Innocenti (=innocent, in Florence), Amore (=Love), Diodato (=god given), and others (but as said not Deviato). Interestingly, the books say that at some point (one book says in 1869, another in 1929, wonder when...) a law was passed forbidding to assign a name that could hint at the foundling condition, meaning that after that date foundling were assigned common regular names (like say Rossi or the like). Up until the middle of the XX century, though, kids whose parents were not known had a dreaded "NN" (=nessuno, nobody) in the "parents" entry in their birth certificates.

    As for how to find out about birth records or other information in Italy, there are two main sources, the public registry of the comune (=county) where the person was born (called "anagrafe" - but often old records are moved to the public archive, or "archivio di stato"), and the parrocchia (parish) registry of baptism. My guess is that the parrocchia is usually more likely to have the record. Unfortunately, because of the many wars, it is random whether the city/parish record exists this far back. But in most cases they do. I don't know of a way of getting the info from the US. One has to send somebody directly to the place (the comune or the parish), and of course one has to know exactly the comune where the person was born or the parish where he was baptized (and typically, a comune has many parish churches, so even knowing the town, it may not be easy to pick the right church). All of these records, if one is lucky enough to find them, list the parents, and sometimes some old church ones indirectly also the grandparents (because they say, eg, Giovanni Cagetti, son of Vincenzo of Giovanni, and of Piera Pennoni of Francesco - this being in fact a record that my father has found in a parish)

    cacio

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  • Etruscan
    replied
    wow! Thank you Mike for this info. This is very very interesting. The years you give for this "proietto" is right on target on with the time this occured in my family tree. What would you recommend that I do to find out more info, if that is at all possible? My 2 Aunts do not know much about their father's side of the family. Many of his brothers and sisters had children and these children live near Naples as do their children. Others live in New England, I believe, but not one person can give any more info than I have given you.

    Obviously the MTDNA tests have nothing to do with this, since this is my mother's father. I would also ask-- do you think I should get the next MTDNA test...I already did the first one and I am haplogroup H with a difference of 16519C. However I wish to know more. What is typically the next step after the first MTDNA test? Grazie!

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Abandoned babies in Italy - called "proietto"

    Originally posted by Etruscan
    Also, I found out some more info about my mother's father, the one from around the Vesuvius area. His grandfather was left on a doorstep as a baby. He was an out of wedlock child-- my GGGgrandfather was a Prince in Italy, not sure where, nor do I know his name, he must have had a mistress and produced a child....my gggrandfather. All records are destroyed, according to my grandfather, who has been deceased many years. My grandfather's last name was Deviato. What does his last name tell you about his family????
    It sounds like your grandfather's grandfather, who was left on a doorstep, was what was called a "proietto" baby. Babies were abandoned from the Middle Ages up through the 19th century, especially in the poor parts of the country, southern Italy and Sicily. It was not just because of illegitimacy, however. Because of lack of knowledge and use of birth control and religious prohibition of abortion, it was the case that poor married couples would end up abandoning infants if they felt they couldn't afford to feed another child. In some of these cases, the mother would leave a trinket of some sort with the abandoned baby, so that they she could claim the child at a later date and prove it was her child.

    If you want to know a little more about this phenomenon, check out this page on a website by Tom Briggs - http://www.redpeach.net/child.htm Tom has ancestors from Mezzojuso, the town in Sicily where both my paternal grandparents were born. When he was researching the microfilmed records of Mezzojuso births for the 1830s, he noted that 7-10% of the babies had their parents listed as unknown, with the surname Proietto. (As Cacio noted already, another common surname assigned to abandoned infants was Esposito.) They had been abandoned at the local convent and were raised as foundlings. From my research in the Mezzojuso records, it seems that most of them didn't survive past the age of 2, because of the poor conditions.

    As you may have guessed by now, my interest in this subject is personal. All the evidence I have from the records indicates that my great-grandfather Nunzio Maddi, born about 1845, was abandoned at birth. During childhood, my first and second cousins, my sister and myself all heard a story similar to yours - that Nunzio was actually the son of a nobleman who gave him to a Maddi family to raise. One second cousin remembers hearing that the mother of Nunzio was a servant of the nobleman. Of course, it could be the case that Nunzio was just the son of poor peasants who couldn't afford to feed him. (Fortunately for me, he didn't die in infancy. If his estimated birth year of 1845 is correct, he died at the age of 94 in Bayonne, NJ.)

    Probably the only possibility I have to find out the truth about Nunzio's father is through genetic genealogy. I have my 37 marker test and have upgraded to 59. Now I just have to wait until I match someone who also has Sicilian ancestors.

    Mike Maddi
    Co-Administrator of the Sicily Project
    Last edited by MMaddi; 9 May 2006, 07:13 PM.

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  • Etruscan
    replied
    Jim, could you plllllleeeasseee tell me how to do this. I am new to this whole things, grazie!!!!!!!!

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by Etruscan
    Cacio, I am disappointed that you did not notice my grandfather's last name a little more!! Deviato=deviate. If my ggggrandfather left his child on a doorstep due to infidelity, then he was indeed a deviate, even though he may have been some sort of royalty. When my grandfather was alive still in the mid 1970's he explained to my sisters that his last name meant exactly what I said above.

    My grandfather took a boat to Naples every year and from there visited all of his family still in Italy. He was an immigrant as well, coming to the US I believe around 1910 or so, when he was a young teenager. However, I don't know if anyone still has info on his family line. Seems that since the records were destroyed, how can we know who this "prince' was? And who was the woman?

    you find someone related join a geographical location project and await matches. what you see here is only the start eventually 50 million will join the databases and you see a much clearer picture of what happened

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  • Etruscan
    replied
    Cacio, I am disappointed that you did not notice my grandfather's last name a little more!! Deviato=deviate. If my ggggrandfather left his child on a doorstep due to infidelity, then he was indeed a deviate, even though he may have been some sort of royalty. When my grandfather was alive still in the mid 1970's he explained to my sisters that his last name meant exactly what I said above.

    My grandfather took a boat to Naples every year and from there visited all of his family still in Italy. He was an immigrant as well, coming to the US I believe around 1910 or so, when he was a young teenager. However, I don't know if anyone still has info on his family line. Seems that since the records were destroyed, how can we know who this "prince' was? And who was the woman?

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  • cacio
    replied
    Etruscan, I don't know much about Campania (I lived in Tuscany and Piedmont). However, just off the top of my head, Deviato sounds like a rare name (apparently it does exist in small numbers in Naples, but still). But Devito or De Vito (with a space inbetween) is rather more common (also here, think about the actor Danny Devito), and it means, "Of Vito", Vito being a first name. (Again, you can check the website for the distribution). So one possibility is a misspelling of De Vito. (Incidentally, I think that, in Naples, a name commonly associated with orphans was Esposito.)

    As for the other two names, Teramo, being so rare, sounds like a name representing the geographical origin, ie somebody from the city of Teramo moved somewhere else and was indicated with the name of where he came from. Antonelli, as said, comes from Antonello ("little Anthony"), so it must have started from someone named that way. However, because it is very common in many regions, it must have many independent lines, i.e., in many different cities different people whose name was Antonello must have started an Antonelli family. But, as said, I'm no expert, so this is just a pure guess.

    cacio

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  • Etruscan
    replied
    Cacio, I looked up the last name Teramo in the link you provided. It tells me that that last name exists in Abruzzi as well. However, I would love to get more info on this last name, as well as the last name Antonelli. Like I said, we had Antonelli's in our family line sometime in the early 1800's. Also, I found out some more info about my mother's father, the one from around the Vesuvius area. His grandfather was left on a doorstep as a baby. He was an out of wedlock child-- my GGGgrandfather was a Prince in Italy, not sure where, nor do I know his name, he must have had a mistress and produced a child....my gggrandfather. All records are destroyed, according to my grandfather, who has been deceased many years. My grandfather's last name was Deviato. What does his last name tell you about his family????

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  • Etruscan
    replied
    Caccio, forget the Y haplogroups, Italians are the most interesting people that ever lived!!!

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  • cacio
    replied
    Etruscan:
    the Etruscans did have a southern colony in Capua (which is may be 20miles
    north of Naples). The original inhabitants of Campania I believe were Oscans, a Latin population related to the Romans. But then of course Campania was invaded or settled by many others (Greek colonies, Byzantines, Lombard duchy etc.). So possibly you still cannot claim yourself etruscan

    More seriously, regarding the cited paper on the Etruscans, I read it once, but found it difficult to understand. The sample is small, and really it's hard to see a pattern there. I guess part of the reason is that European mtdna is pretty similar to start with. Y-haplogroups would have been more interesting, but then, I don't think anybody has managed to extract Y-dna this ancient.

    cacio

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