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Etruscan DNA?

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  • F.E.C.
    replied
    In pre-Roman times Etruscans inhabited the region of Umbria with other peoples such as Sabines and Umbri.


    Here come a couple of articles (in Italian) about somethinkg interesting to me, an "Umbrian-origins" R1b:

    http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dcomas/CeltUmb.htm

    http://www.montimartani.it/celtica.html


    I' ll try to make an abstract in English for those of you who can't speak Italian (nobody's perfect ). There are several webpages about this issue, but only in Italian. Please let me know if you think it's pure whimsy.

    The most known version of history tells that Celts settled in northern Italy.
    This article tries to show that in reality they pushed further towards south and occupied the area of my grandfather's hometown, Terni, that is about 100 kms (about 60 miles?) to Rome.
    Showing convincing geographical links with the Senones (a Gaulish tribe that lived southeast of Bologna) they say that the Nahars (that's their name, and the name of Interamna Nahars, which later became simply Terni) occupied Valnerina and stopped the Etruscan expansion towards east. Thay add that the Umbri ("Umru") had celtic roots as well.

    Basically there are three elements that leads them to these conclusions:

    - toponymy in the area: Dunarobba (from "Dun a Robb", that would mean something like "big fortress"), Morgnano (from "Morg Nam", more or less "pigs' pen/fence"), Lugnano ("town of Lug").
    As far as I know Lug belongs to Celtic mithology and, curiously, Lugnano's village fair occurs on the first of August, on the same day of "Lugnasad", a Celtic festivity

    - archeology: they found stone artifacts, tumuluses, chariots in tombs, stones with inscriptions in latin and what seems a celtic language, two hedged hatchets carved in the old church of Cesi (my surname, Cesaroni, could hint at Cesi as place of origin)

    - traditions: meaningful elements in local dialect; in the night between 30th April and 1st May (Beltane?) they have chariots' parades and then light fires in the fields; San Francesco from Assisi himself, the most important saint of Italy, celebrated a particular form of Christianism close to nature and animals "drawing" from the ancestral beliefs of Umbrian people.

    Is all this credible? What do you think about it?
    For sure there are people out there who are better informed than me for what concerns Celtic culture language, thus I'm in your hands
    Last edited by F.E.C.; 18 May 2006, 07:26 AM.

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  • cacio
    replied
    F.E.C:
    I don't really know much about haplogroup H (I am U1a). As far as I know, most H subgroups are found throughout the whole of Europe, so I'm not sure which additional information regarding, say, geographical ancestry these subgroups tell. I know that H1 and H3 are highest in Northern Spain/SW France and then decrease going NW, which has been interpreted as a sign of a post-glacial colonization of Northern Europe from Cantabrian refugia. But that's the only example I know. Hopefully, someone else with more knowledge about h-mtdna will step in.

    As for the test, just send an email to FTDNA (with whom I believe you tested) asking them for H subgroup refinement test. A friend of mine did it, I believe it costs around $100 or so.
    cacio

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  • cacio
    replied
    M.O'Connor:
    the sequences can also be found online, on page 699 of the following article:

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../40826.web.pdf

    cacio

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  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    I have writen to Joanna Mountain asking for a list of the sequences found in the Etruscan mtDNA study.

    I will post any reply here.

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Etruscans not ancestors of modern Tuscans

    The following link, http://news-service.stanford.edu/new...in-051706.html, was posted this evening on the Genealogy-DNA list. It's an article about a very interesting Stanford University study comparing Etruscan mtDNA samples from gravesites to the mtDNA results of living residents of Tuscany. This is the area of Italy which corresponds to where the Etruscans lived.

    The conclusion of the study is not the only interesting thing about it. The research team used a computer simulation program to try to see if they could establish some connection between Etruscans and living Tuscans. According to the article, "Despite the range of scenarios created, the scientists could not find a match between the observed archaeological data and the simulations."

    Mike Maddi

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  • Etruscan
    replied
    Cacio, forgive me, then what do subgroups like H1, H2, etc. signify? For instance, H1 is associated with what other groups? And what particular test do I choose for these subgroups? I know H is very diverse and of course I am not surprised that I tested in the H haplogroup on my mother's side....they are all from Southern Italy.

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  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    I wouldn't want to change his paper.

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  • Victor
    replied
    Originally posted by F.E.C.
    We'll never learn...look what happened to the guys of the Jurassic Park
    Indeed. Not sure I'm ready to have a pterodactyl pet


    But the line dividing science from science-fiction is getting more blurred as time goes by.
    http://www.livescience.com/scienceof...th_effort.html

    There are some limits, of course.
    http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTD004639.html

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  • F.E.C.
    replied
    Originally posted by Victor
    p.s. In fact, there are now scientists trying to clone the extinct 27,000 year old mammoth from the extracted DNA.
    We'll never learn...look what happened to the guys of the Jurassic Park

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  • Victor
    replied
    Originally posted by F.E.C.
    Sorry but genetics is not exactly my field (I'm studying law!!!) so I have to make a stupid question.

    The problem with ancient Y-DNA: is it something they are going to solve(maybe thanks to new technologies) or is it something that can't be solved at all (because centuries old Y-DNA just "vanishes" and there's just nothing you can do)?
    Genetics is not my specialty either but from what I've learned, molecular integrity of Y-DNA is extremely labile and degrades easily after death. Under some special conditions it could survive for a long time. I'm thinking for example conditions like those of the frozen mammoth in the Siberian permafrost.

    p.s. In fact, there are now scientists trying to clone the extinct 27,000 year old mammoth from the extracted DNA.
    Last edited by Victor; 17 May 2006, 07:44 AM.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by M.O'Connor
    I think it all rests on the condition of each sample. There has been some talk in the news recently about scientist extracting a partial y sequence of a Neaderthal Man sample.
    Well, then I'll probably get at least one match!

    (I've always wondered where the hair on my back came from!)

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  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    I think it all rests on the condition of each sample. There has been some talk in the news recently about scientist extracting a partial y sequence of a Neaderthal Man sample.

    Leave a comment:


  • F.E.C.
    replied
    Sorry but genetics is not exactly my field (I'm studying law!!!) so I have to make a stupid question.

    The problem with ancient Y-DNA: is it something they are going to solve(maybe thanks to new technologies) or is it something that can't be solved at all (because centuries old Y-DNA just "vanishes" and there's just nothing you can do)?

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  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    (Stevo.. i will have to investigate that book)

    Cacio:
    I wasn't familiar with a Y group called H? So I went to the trusty chart
    http://www.familytreedna.com/haplotree.html

    ...and there you are!..way up there.

    Y-H must be more ancient than the my R branch.

    Do you feel any older than me?

    (Heck I wasn't even a twinkle in the eye of Haplo P )

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  • cacio
    replied
    MOConnor:
    thanks for the suggestion on the article. I read it. The article does some fancy statistical analysis on the data extracted by the Bernesi et al paper discussed at the beginning of this thread. That paper showed that the ancient etruscan skeletons analyzed had mtdna sequences that appeared broadly speaking European or Mediterranean, but not particularly related to any modern population. This new paper does additional statistical analysis that seems to confirm the conclusion: the mtdna of the modern tuscans does not seem to descend from that of the Etruscans. But no other modern population seems to be descendent from the Etruscan either.

    Among the possible explanations that the paper suggests: 1) the female lines simply died out, because of population replacement 2) the samples were from a smaller elite not necessarily representative of the whole etruscan population 3) while the female lines died out, in a patrilinear society the male lines survived, but there is no way of knowing this because it is not possible to test ancient Y dna.

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