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  • #31
    What about not English but the Scandinavian languages where alongside the 'Thrall' we have 'Slav' meaning slave?

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    • #32
      Back on the Thread Now...

      In case anyone still cares, here's the link to the paper I initially mentioned, that discusses the mysterious and widespread link between non-Etruscan parts of Italy and Anatolia.

      hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/ AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf

      and an all-text version:

      www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/ journal/issues/v74n5/40867/40867.text.html

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mikey
        In case anyone still cares, here's the link to the paper I initially mentioned, that discusses the mysterious and widespread link between non-Etruscan parts of Italy and Anatolia.

        hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/ AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf

        and an all-text version:

        www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/ journal/issues/v74n5/40867/40867.text.html
        I'm not sure why you posted this again, but the links in your post are broken. Here is more info, as well as a link I hope will work.
        There is a sad irony revealed in this study. I will add that the original CMH interpretation appears to have proven fallacious.

        Reconstruction of Patrilineages and Matrilineages of Samaritans and Other Israeli Populations From Y-Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Variation

        The Samaritan community, which numbered more than a million in late
        Roman times and only 146 in 1917, numbers today about 640 people
        representing four large families. They are culturally different from
        both Jewish and non-Jewish populations in the Middle East and their
        origin remains a question of great interest. Genetic differences
        between the Samaritans and neighboring Jewish and non-Jewish
        populations are corroborated in the present study of 7,280 bp of
        nonrecombining Y-chromosome and 5,622 bp of coding and hypervariable
        segment I (HVS-I) mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences. Comparative
        sequence analysis was carried out on 12 Samaritan Y-chromosome, and
        mtDNA samples from nine male and seven female Samaritans separated by
        at least two generations. In addition, 18–20 male individuals were
        analyzed, each representing Ethiopian, Ashkenazi, Iraqi, Libyan,
        Moroccan, and Yemenite Jews, as well as Druze and Palestinians, all
        currently living in Israel. The four Samaritan families clustered to
        four distinct Y-chromosome haplogroups according to their patrilineal
        identity. Of the 16 Samaritan mtDNA samples, 14 carry either of two
        mitochondrial haplotypes that are rare or absent among other worldwide
        ethnic groups. Principal component analysis suggests a common ancestry
        of Samaritan and Jewish patrilineages. Most of the former may be
        traced back to a common ancestor in the paternally-inherited Jewish
        high priesthood (Cohanim) at the time of the Assyrian conquest of the
        kingdom of Israel. Hum Mutat 24:248–260, 2004. r 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

        Comment


        • #34
          Hetware, again you've left us scratching our heads:

          A) I never posted the link. You asked me for it. That's why I reposted it.

          B) What does a study on 5 Samaritan families have to do with the Etruscan/Anatolian/Italian discussion in the paper to which I cited?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mikey
            Hetware, again you've left us scratching our heads:

            A) I never posted the link. You asked me for it. That's why I reposted it.

            B) What does a study on 5 Samaritan families have to do with the Etruscan/Anatolian/Italian discussion in the paper to which I cited?
            Again you are using the first person plural when describing your confusion. I suspect that may not apply. I did not ask for the reference to the paper, I had it before this discussion ever started.
            http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/s...7&postcount=14

            As for the Samaritan paper, it simply provides another perspective on ancient populations of the region in question.

            Comment


            • #36
              Hmmm, OK, now the Etruscan "region in question" includes Israel?

              Still scratching MY head,

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mikey
                Hmmm, OK, now the Etruscan "region in question" includes Israel?

                Still scratching MY head,
                From the paper you introduced into the discussion:

                (4) J-M172(xM12) distribution is consistent with a Levantine/Anatolian dispersal route to southeastern Europe and may reflect the spread of Anatolian farmers;
                Mikey,

                Please read the following definitions carefully:
                http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/levantine
                http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Di...uery=levantine
                http://bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/we...antine&x=0&y=0

                Now here's a map of the Levant:
                http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...e_ref_1926.jpg
                You can choose to believe in the fairytale kingdom of David and Solomon if you like. History is silent on its existence. OTOH, Phœnicia is well attested to.
                http://phoenicia.org/imgs/maps/images/9coloniesmap.jpg
                http://phoenicia.org/imgs/maps/image...tradeposts.jpg

                I trust you will still be scratching your head.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Ah Hetware, one line in the paper does not make your post on Samaritans relevant, or prescient.

                  Getting sidetracked on side-issues impresses no one, most certainly not me. I am still left wondering why you posted all these non-sequiturs and why you attacked me originally (perhaps you should read your original post!) for posting that researchers have confirmed an Anatolian link to Italian Y DNA.

                  At any rate, since we're the only two posting here, I officially give up. As a gent, I will let you have the last word if you want it. (I'm sure you do). Then...enough!

                  I truly believe we both appreciate the exciting finds in DNA research and will leave it at that.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Some historians like Zhack zhean Faverial intend to put etruscans as Pelasgians .

                    He puts Macedonians, etruscans, thracians, illyrians= Pelasgians. And also on in most cases albanian is used to translate scripts in etruscan. Since Illyrians our anscestors are Indo-european, how come we can translate etruscan scripts with our language.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Albanian language-a Welsh connection?

                      Valued Albanian colleague, "Macedonians, etruscans, thracians, illyrians= Pelasgians." are all Indo-european speakers, likely of Keltoi branch at some time. DNA does not distinguish language.
                      So it does not matter when some historian throws such words in a hat, and brings one out to say it means another.

                      I was fascinated some years ago in London, watching a TV beauty contest held in Albania. A Kosovan beauty , a refugee from the ongoing Serb assault, won the crown.
                      She was asked how she felt about winning in Albania.
                      She replied, "Mae nih n'un".
                      This is the same as Welsh (Celto-Latin) for " We are as one".

                      I took a look at Albanian dictionaries later on , and found only the words for "red" and black" (all from old Keltic) the same as in Welsh. There were Italian, Turkish, Latin, Greek words on top of a tiny layer of Celtic.
                      Illyrian speech was probably Indoeuropean-Keltic before Roman invasion. Many of the skulls and inscriptions in Legionary graveyards from ( 2 to 5 Century) Britain indicate (pre-8thC Slavic) Illyrian or Dakian origin.
                      There may be other links.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I have been thinking about Etruscan and Roman slaves after looking at my mtDNA results.

                        Originally posted by Internet
                        The Etruscans are one of the mysterious peoples of the ancient world, who seem to have appeared for a time on the stage of history, and then seemed to have disappeared. In fact, from the end of the Roman period to the Middle Ages, they could be said to have ceased to exist, since the sites of their cities, towns, villages and farms had been completely lost. It was in the19th century that the study of the Etruscan legacy began in earnest. The heart of Etruria was the territory, in the present day Italy, on the Tyrrhenian Sea between the rivers, Arno on the north and Tiber on the south and extending to Perugia in the east. The Etruscan influence in the 7th and 6th centuries B.C., went beyond its heartland and extended to, Adria in the Po valley in the north and to Capua in the south. It is generally accepted, that present day Tuscans are the Etruscans' closest neighbors (Wellard 1973, Vernesi 2004).

                        http://www.maknews.com/html/articles...the_slavs.html
                        My thoughts shifted to what was mtDNA and why did mutations occur.
                        Originally posted by Internet
                        The mtDNA contains a mere 37 genes compared with the 50,000 to 100,000 genes in nuclear DNA. And these few mtDNA genes are devoted largely to the mitochondria's principal job of producing chemical energy for the thousands of second-by-second chemical reactions in a cell. The human mtDNA is a double stranded circular molecule of 16569 bp and contains 37 genes coding for two rRNAs, 22 tRNAs and 13 polypeptides. Furthermore, mtDNA is known for having high acquired mutation rates which are 10 times higher than that of nuclear genomic DNA. It is generally accepted that high mutation rates of mtDNA are caused by lack of protective histones, inefficient DNA repair systems and continuous exposure to mutagenic effects of oxygen radicals generated by oxidative phosphorylation [1]. An association between mtDNA mutations and neurologic or metabolic disorders has previously been reported [2-4].
                        Miyazono F, Schneider PM, Metzger R, Warnecke-Eberz U, Baldus SE, Dienes HP, Aikou T, Hoelscher AH. Mutations in the mitochondrial DNA D-Loop region occur frequently in adenocarcinoma in Barrett's esophagus. Oncogene. 2002;21:3780–3783. doi: 10.1038/sj.onc.1205532. [PubMed] [Full Text]
                        Wallace DC. Diseases of the mitochondrial DNA. Annu Rev Biochem. 1992;61:1175–1212. doi: 10.1146/annurev.bi.61.070192.005523. [PubMed] [Full Text]
                        Gerbitz KD, van den Ouweland JM, Maassen JA, Jaksch M. Mitochondrial diabetes mellitus: a review. Biochim Biophys Acta. 1995;1271:253–260. [PubMed]
                        Armstrong J, Pineda M, Monros E. Mutation analysis of 16S rRNA in patients with Rett syndrome. Pediatr Neurol. 2000;23:85–87. doi: 10.1016/S0887-8994(00)00158-2. [PubMed] [Full Text]
                        Levin BC, Cheng H, Reeder DJ. A human mitochondrial DNA standard reference material for quality control in forensic identification, medical diagnosis, and mutation detection. Genomics. 1999;55:135–146. doi: 10.1006/geno.1998.5513. [PubMed] [Full Text]
                        ( http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1352382 )
                        Magalhaes, PJ; Andreu, AL, Schon EA, Evidence for the presence of 5 S rRNA in mammalian mitochondria Mol Biol Cell 9: 2375-2382
                        The story began with people discovering that mice were not men
                        Originally posted by Internet
                        Man vs. mouse
                        -- Mice and humans both have about 30,000 genes - and share 99% of them - but the mouse genome is shorter than that of humans (2.5 billion letters compared with 2.9 billion) -- -- About 1,200 new genes have been discovered in the human because of mouse-human genome comparisons.
                        -- Mice have many more olfactory genes compared to the human. Smell matters for mice, especially for sex and mating; they also have more genes involved in reproduction (such as aphrodisin, which stimulates mating behaviour in males) and immunity.
                        -- It might be said that we are essentially mice without tails - but we even have the genes that could make a tail.
                        -- 90 percent of genes associated with disease are identical in the human and the mouse, supporting the use of mice as model organisms.
                        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...L&type=science
                        The search led me to think about slaves who lived during the Roman Empire
                        Originally posted by Internet
                        Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Italy. III. Population data from Sicily: a possible quantitation of maternal African ancestry.

                        Semino O, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Brega A, De Benedictis G, Santachiara Benerecetti AS.

                        Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia 'A. Buzzati-Traverso', Universita di Pavia, Italy.

                        mtDNA polymorphisms were studied in a sample of 90 individuals of the Sicilian population using six restriction enzymes: HpaI, BamHI, HaeII, MspI, AvaII and HincII. (1) Three new patterns, for MspI, AvaII and HincII, have been detected. (2) At least two different mutations were found to account for both the AvaII morph 3 and the AvaII morph 9 as in many other Caucasian groups so far examined. (3) Seventeen types were found; of these six are new. The frequency (54.5%) of type 1-2 (2.1.1.1.1.2) is lower than in the rest of Italy whereas those of type 6-2 (2.1.2.1.1.2) (10.0%) and type 18-2 (2.3.1.4.9*.2) (12.2%) lie at the upper level of the Italian range. The 18-derivative, type 57-2 (2.3.1.4.13*.2), which is consistently found in all Italian samples, is present also among Sicilians with an incidence of 2.2%. (4) Of particular interest is that the HpaI-3/AvaII-3 complex, which is unique to groups of African ancestry, was found in Sicily at a frequency of 4.4%. For the first time an estimate of the amount of gene flow from Blacks to the Sicilian gene pool could be obtained.
                        Ann Hum Genet. 1989 May;53 ( Pt 2):193-202.
                        So, I looked towards research in Europe and by Bryan Sykes.
                        Originally posted by Internet
                        ONE in every 100 "white" Britons is directly descended from an African or Asian, a new study has found. The study, which looked at the DNA of 10,000 people, found that many who believed their ancestry to be completely British were actually far more diverse.

                        Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, believes the DNA originates in Africans brought to Britain as soldiers and slaves by the Romans.

                        Among those whom Sykes found with a strong selection of African genes were a dairy farmer from Somerset whose British ancestry can be traced back hundreds of years.

                        Many other discoveries cannot be so easily explained. Sykes found that a primary school teacher in Edinburgh had Polynesian DNA that could only have originated from tribes in the south Pacific, even though her family could trace its British ancestry for at least 200 years.

                        Sykes believes such discoveries show that long migrations and consequent mixing of populations have always been a feature of humanity, making talk about racial purity meaningless.

                        He said: "This makes nonsense of any biological basis for racial classification. We are all a complex mixture and, at the same time, we are all related."

                        Similar analyses on black Britons have helped them to establish the links to their past that were destroyed when their ancestors were captured by slave traders.

                        Jendayi Serwah, of Bristol, came to Britain from Jamaica and was unable to trace her ancestry more than a few generations. Gene tests showed that she was almost certainly descended from members of the Kenyan Kikuyu tribe.

                        Other recent research has further undermined claims that Britain, or groups within it, could be racially unmixed. It showed that almost everybody of native European descent could trace their ancestry back to one of seven women who lived between 45,000 and 10,000 years ago.

                        Sykes is part of a project to create a genetic map of the British Isles, including Ireland. Early results suggest that, despite each group's claims to distinct origins, Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland were once members of the same tribe, some of whose members emigrated to southwest Scotland in about 800AD.

                        Copyright 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd.
                        It seems now that we are now waiting for the numbers to be crunched.
                        Last edited by GregKiroKH; 26 March 2006, 11:45 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I was reading these posts about the Etruscans (I am from Tuscany myself, although not from the formerly Etruscan part of Tuscany), and the mention of Pelasgians and Anatolian origins. My understanding is that the only archaeological connection is a stone inscription found in the greek island of Lemnos, whose alphabet is similar to Etruscan. The language of the inscription has not been decyphered, as far as I know, which suggests that it is not Indo-european. The Pelasgians were not the Illyrians (who spoke an Indoeuropean language), but possibly inhabitants of the greek isles. However, because of the scarcity of materials, nothing can be really said. It may even be that some Etruscan merchants were working around those islands.

                          Historically, the Anatolian origin of the Etruscans comes from Herodotus, but even in antiquity, most other historians did not share this notion (and in fact some stated that Etruscans were autochtonous). Apparently, no particular myth of the Etruscan themselves about such origin has been reported.

                          As for the reference to Northern Italy or Germany, I think something comes from the so called Rhaetic inscriptions of the Alps, which were in an Etruscan alphabet and whose language (again, as far as I know not deciphered) seems closer to Etruscan than to Indoeuropean languages. Which may or may not indicate that the inhabitants of the area (which is not Central Europe or Germany, but just a small region in the Italian Alps) spoke a language of the same family as Etruscan. (But note then that also the first -and now translated- celtic inscriptions in Northern Italy were written using Etruscan letters).

                          It would be nice to have a Y chromosome DNA analysis of Romans of Etruscans, but does anybody know of one? I guess so far people have not been able to extract Y chromosome from 1000+ old bones. Otherwise we'd see many papers. Besides, Tuscany has been invaded many times (as the rest of Italy) - Romans, Byzantines, Lombards (ie Germans), and more, so isolating supposed Etruscan markers from modern populations would be quite tricky.

                          cacio

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            It would be nice to have a Y chromosome DNA analysis of Romans of Etruscans, but does anybody know of one? I guess so far people have not been able to extract Y chromosome from 1000+ old bones. Otherwise we'd see many papers. Besides, Tuscany has been invaded many times (as the rest of Italy) - Romans, Byzantines, Lombards (ie Germans), and more, so isolating supposed Etruscan markers from modern populations would be quite tricky.
                            Hi Cacio,
                            my guess is that the genetic composition of central Italy has remained substantially the same in the last 2000 or more years: unlike other parts of the country, this area have suffered only some raids and foreigner armies and lords have always respected the Pope's authority (except some exceptions)...I think it's likely that sabins' and latins', maybe etruscans' too, heritage lives on, unfortunately nobody seems to care

                            Francesco

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              ...oh I forgot...and accepting certain names and haplos in the Italian dedicated project without any filter surely doesn't help...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                This seems a good point historically, at least for most of Tuscany and Central Italy. And most of the population was probably scattered anyway in small villages in the hills or the mountains, not in the depopulated cities. Although, as usual, it would be nice to have some direct genetic evidence.

                                My guess though is that some parts of Northern Tuscany are more varied. I don't believe too much in these stats, but for instance the average height in the province of Lucca is the second or so in Italy, as is the percentage of blondes (I think this data comes from some old - XIX century stats for military conscripts, although I don't have the exact source). May be that's a sign of Germanic admixture (the Lombards had a duchy in Lucca, after all). And in the northwest of Tuscany several people have passed: Ligurians, Romans, Byzantines, Lombards etc.

                                Regarding strange haplos, I must say I have one - I belong to Y-haplogroup L, although the family has been living at least since the XVIII century in the Massa area (hence my interest in Tuscany). (Mtdna is U1a, which is common in the Arabic world - but not unknown in the rest of the Mediterranean and Europe.)

                                cacio

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