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R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) - Can we make sense of it?

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  • Iberoamericano
    Guest replied
    Cantabrian M269?

    R1b1c in Cantabrian region is proto-basque?
    Originally posted by johnraciti
    Being R1b does not necessarily mean that your lineage is from Irish/Welsh/Cornish/Basque descent. R1b does make up a percentage of Scandinavia. In Norway and Denmark R1b values DYS390=24 and DYS391=11 are strong and match that of the Pyrenees/Welsh, etc. areas. Values of DYS390=23 and DYS391=11 tend to be Germanic and get more frequent towards the Netherlands.

    Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b

    R1b (previously known as Hg1 and Eu18) is the most prolific haplogroup in Europe and its frequency changes in a cline from west (where it reaches a saturation point of almost 100% in areas of Western Ireland) to east (where it becomes uncommon in parts of Eastern Europe and virtually disappears beyond the Middle East). A R1b haplotype (a set of marker scores indicative of the haplogroup) is very difficult to interpret in that they are found at relatively high frequency in the areas where the Anglo - Saxon and Danish "invaders" originally called home (e.g., 55% in Friesland), and even up to 30% in Norway. Thus a R1b haplotype makes it very challenging to determine the origin of a family with this DNA signature.

    During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000 years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in Northern Spain (see map1). After the glacial retreat about 12,000 years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large numbers (see map 2), and to the east in declining numbers.

    R1b probably arrived in Spain from the east 30,000 years ago among the paleolithic or "old stone age" peoples considered to be aboriginal to Europe). It is believed that everyone who is R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals). Source: Dr. David Faux

    The members of R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) are believed to be the descendants of the first modern humans who entered Europe about 35,000-40,000 years ago ( Aurignacian culture). Those R1b3 forebearers were the people who painted the beautiful art in the caves in Spain and France. They were the modern humans who were the contemporaries - and perhaps exterminators - of the European Neanderthals. Source: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....2003_R1b3.html

    Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer’s permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Source http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....e_surnames.htm

    During the Last Glacial Maximum, R1b produced finely knapped stone 'leaf points' which define the Solutrean culture and were culturally distinct from the people in other European Ice Age refuges who are described more generally as Epi-Gravettian. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, pp 249-50.

    The mates for R1b, about the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, were mtDNA haplogroups H and V. (Haplogroup V was born in the Basque area of the Pyrenees shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, p 251.)

    R1b Subclade Analysis by Ken Nordtvedt

    Haplogroup R1b

    Most of the participants in the Cheek DNA study, including everyone in the main related groups (what we're calling "GROUP 1" and "GROUP 2"), appear to fall into Haplogroup R1b, which is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe. Two participants from GROUP 1 have confirmed this result with an SNP test. The frequency of R1b is highest along the Atlantic coast of Europe (up to 90% of Welsh, Irish, and Basque populations, for example), and declines as you move east. Haplogroup R1b probably originated in a group of people who "wintered" in what is now Spain during the last Ice Age and then moved north when the glaciers retreated 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.

    A subset of the R1b haplogroup known as the "Atlantic Modal Haplotype" (AMH) consists of 6 genetic markers that have been found at high frequencies on the European Atlantic coast, such as Wales, Ireland, the Orkney Islands, and the Basque country. In the British Isles, the AMH is strongly associated with the Celts, including English people with Celtic ancestry ("Anglo-Celts"). Over the last 10,000 years, the British Isles have been home to a wide variety of people, including prehistoric tribes, Celts, Germanic tribes such as the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings from Scandinavia, and, most recently (1066 A.D.) the Normans from France, who were basically French-speaking Vikings. Although historians have usually assumed that the "ancient Britons" (Celts and others) were wiped out by the Anglo-Saxon invasions, or were all pushed into Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall, recent genetic studies show that the native population survived in many parts of England, especially in the southwest and along the southern coast.

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  • Downer101
    Originally posted by Hetware
    I've been asking some of the same questions. The article discussing Armenian R1b hinted that it may be a residual trace left by the original migration of our R1b ancestors from Southeast Asia. The authors seemed to be suggesting the distant relationship between Armenian and other IE languages was, likewise, part of the residue. That seems to be way out of the timeframe for linguistic corelations, and is therefore hard to believe.

    There are many possible scenarios which might explain the observed distribution. One of the big factors to consider is whether there was catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea around 5700 BCE. There are some very vocal opponents of the Ryan and Pitman model, but I have yet to see a comprehensive study that convinces me one way or another. All of the people I know of who have rejected the idea have demonstrated that they really don't understand it well.

    It's very difficult for me to know what to make of the limited data available through the fixed queries such as "Recent Ethnic Origins" or "Haplotypgroup". For example, I have close matches to "Russian - Native Siberian" at a much higher frequency than "Russian". Unfortunately I am not told what percentage of "Russian" in the database is represented by "Russian - Native Siberian".

    The simplistic arrow maps shown on the Genographic Project page fail to address the presence of R1b in Siberia, China, Anatolia and Armenia. There is some evidence suggesting the M207, M173, P25 and M17 mutations are far more recent than the 35,000 ybp Iberian refuge model would require. I'm talking more along the lines of 6,000 to 8,000 ybp.

    I recently saw a discussion of the Basques suggesting the current population of Basque speakers may not be, in genetic terms, very representative of the original speakers of the language. I cannot say it was a well researched scholarly report, but it certainly did give me reason to consider alternatives to what I had been thinking. One of the suggestions was that Basque conservatives had imposed their language on some regions which were not originally Basque-speaking.

    It does appear that the aggregate genetic background of the Basques is consistent with the view that they are somewhat of an ethnic isolate.

    I really had little solid notion of what they look like, so I started searching for pictures on the web. I don't know if these are representative, but I'll have to say, these people look a whole lot more like me than do the majority of people in my neighborhood.

    None of the pictures are close enough to show eye color, but they are certainly not all black-haired with dark complexions.

    My REO hits show that I have several cousins in Northern Spain and Portugal, as well as in Latin America. OTOH, I have only one match for a Basque. He is one step removed on 12 markers. That may be an indication of the sample size, but in comparison to 5 Native Siberians at the same distance, I find it probable that I do not have recent Basque male ancestry.
    Obviously the M207, M173, P25 and M17 mutations are more recent.. These mutations define R1b1c! The father haplogroup of R1b1c is R1b1/R1b AMH Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.. It's supposed to be younger, or else we would have a real issue..

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  • johnraciti
    Guest replied
    Spanish genes

    Originally Posted by Astuto
    How the hell did your wife obtain your Spanish genes????

    Both my wife and I have exact mtdna matches: U5a1a.

    Astuto - The Spanish/Argonese made it to Sicily.

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  • johnraciti
    Guest replied
    Are R1b1c Sicilians - ancient Valencians?

    Are R1b1c Sicilians - ancient Valencians?

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  • johnraciti
    Guest replied
    Are R1b1c Sicilians - ancient Celto-Ligurians of North Italy?

    Are R1b1c Sicilians (The Sicanians, an Iberian nation) - ancient Celto-Ligurians of North Italy?

    Note: The Ligures inhabited what now corresponds to Liguria, northern Tuscany, Piedmont, part of Lombardy, and parts of southeastern France.


    Dionysius of Halicarnassus
    Roman Antiquities

    Sicily: Occupied by the Sicanians, an Iberian nation, who, fleeing from the Ligurians, had but lately settled there and had caused the island, previously named Trinacria, from its triangular shape, to be called Sicania, after themselves. There were very few inhabitants in it for so large an island, and the greater part of it was as yet unoccupied. Accordingly, when the Sicels landed there they first settled in the western parts and afterwards in several others; and from these people the island began to be called Sicily.

    The Ligures (Ligurians) were an ancient people who gave their name to Liguria, which once stretched from Northern Italy into southern Gaul. The Ligures inhabited what now corresponds to Liguria, northern Tuscany, Piedmont, part of Lombardy, and parts of southeastern France. Classical references and toponomastics suggests that the Ligurian sphere once extended further into central Italy. It is not known for certain whether they were a pre-Indo-European people akin to Iberians; a separate Indo-European branch with Italic and Celtic affinities; or even a branch of the Celts. Kinship between the Ligures and Lepontii has also been proposed.

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  • johnraciti
    Guest replied
    My R1b Matches are found in the following countries:

    Belgium 7%
    Pyrenees, Spain 6% Europe
    Brescia, Italy 6% Europe
    Wales 6%
    Azores 6%
    Galicia 5%
    British Isles 5%
    Birmingham, UK 5% Europe
    Ireland 5% Europe
    Netherlands 5%
    Leuven, Belgium 4% Europe
    Great Britain 4%
    Isle of Man 4%
    Scotland 4%
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] 4% Latin America
    Canada 3%
    England 3%
    France 3%
    Iceland 3%
    Ireland 3%
    Portugal 3%
    Spain 3%
    United Kingdom 3%
    Northern Portugal 3% Europe
    Sao Paulo State, Brazil [European] 3% Latin America

    I am starting to think that my Y has come from the Pyrenees, Spain (Iberian-Celtic). Then I have slowly migrated to France, Italy then into Sicily (Paternal).

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  • F.E.C.
    Originally posted by Hetware
    Other than the Greek, Carthaginian, Vandal, Ostragothic(twice), Byzantine, Ottoman, Norman, German and Spanish contributions, there really are very few other candidates.
    I think we can say it is a little more likely for a Sicilian R1b to have a mainland Italian heritage then a Carthaginian one...just a little
    Het, don't be polemical just for the taste of it...

    Hei what's Paolo Di Canio doing there???

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  • Hetware
    Originally posted by johnraciti

    I agree with you, due to the fact that the Sicilian state was connected to the mainland of Calabria.

    I found high percentages of my family's names - coming mainly from Calabria, Campania and Piemonte.

    I would have to agree that most of Sicilian R1b are aboriginal from mainland Italy.
    Other than the Greek, Carthaginian, Vandal, Ostragothic(twice), Byzantine, Ottoman, Norman, German and Spanish contributions, there really are very few other candidates.

    Originally posted by johnraciti
    One Country, One Land, Italia

    Just kidding!

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  • johnraciti
    Guest replied
    R-M269 came from Germany before coming from the Pyrenees into Italy.

    The R-M269 Y-chromosomes - the gene pool of the ancestral population(s) of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area.

    "The Molecular Dissection of mtDNA Haplogroup H Confirms That the Franco-Cantabrian Glacial Refuge Was a Major Source for the European Gene Pool".

    H1* is reasonably represented in Germany...

    One could say the R-M269 Y chromosomes - that populated Italy; mainland Italy, Sicily and Sardinia came from Germany before coming from the Pyrenees.

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  • johnraciti
    Guest replied
    Sardinian Y chromosomes

    From surnames to the history of Y chromosomes: the Sardinian population as a paradigm.

    A total of 202 Sardinian male subjects were examined for 13 biallelic stable markers, the complex 49a,f/TaqI system and three microsatellites of the Y chromosome in order to investigate, through surname analysis, on a possible territorial heterogeneity inside the island. The study of geographical di …

    90% of the Sardinian Y chromosomes fell into haplogroups E-M35, G-M201, I-M26, J-12f2 and R-M269.

    Note: Very similar to The Sicily Project results to date.

    The 'Sardinian-specific' haplogroup I-M26 showed both a significantly higher incidence in the central-eastern (archaic) area and a significantly lower frequency in the northern area.

    The ancestral homeland of this specific subset of haplogroup I is: the mountainous central-eastern area of Sardinia.

    The population: underwent a long history of isolation since ancient times, and highlight the informative power of the surname analysis.

    Note: R-M269 - Is the oldest of the haplogroups found in Italy. R-M269 (R1b) is native to Italy; mainland Italy, Sicily and Sardinia.
    Last edited by ; 26 January 2006, 06:49 AM.

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  • F.E.C.
    Originally posted by M.O'Connor
    not too imaginative... Maybe your Ancestor was a Foriegn *Gladiator Star* in Rome with a little time off..
    Ridley Scott taught us that Maximus's wife and son (Hispanic R1b) were killed by the evil Emperor Commodus: no he can't be my gggggggrandfather (unless he had an affair with Lucilla...and we know he did!!!)

    Leaving jokes aside, maybe my haplotype was there before Rome was even founded.
    You see, so many people are tested in the UK, US and Hispanic countries and nevertheless there is no database giving me reasonably close matches (hell, not even 23-24/25 or 31/37!).
    So few living in an area roughly corresponding to Marche, Umbria and Latium get tested and it's a pity.


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  • M.O'Connor
    not too imaginative... Maybe your Ancestor was a Foriegn *Gladiator Star* in Rome with a little time off..

    This linked site's idea of the divisons of ancient Italy shows there were different People around at one time or anothother.

    ...and their page on Ancient Languages of Italy
    Last edited by M.O'Connor; 22 January 2006, 10:46 PM.

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  • F.E.C.
    Thank you Mike,

    I really appreciate your business; anyone who can help me with more clarifications is welcomed.

    Until now, these are the tests I've done: Genographic and 37 marker Y-DNA at FTDNA.
    As you can see, I don't have a SNP test to give me 100% certainty that I'm R1b (not yet, as I'm waiting for imminent EA' s response).
    However, in addition to the GP results and Clary's prediction on the R1b project page, even Whit Athey's test suggests I'm R1b (65%).

    In all likelihood I can say I'm R1b. The curious point, as you noticed, is that some values are quite "odd" and on REO page my closest matches are an Irishman and a Scotsman at 22/25, moreover on Ysearch I could find no matches even at 31/37 (only some Brits at 21/25).

    My "theory" (I'm quite a newbie and I have no presumption) is that we have to trace back the roots of such an uncommon haplotype to a particular R1b "Italic" sub-clade and I'm not talking about so-called hg 35.

    I also take into consideration that the area where my ancestors come from in all these centuries has been less exposed to foreign influence than say Sicily, due to its geography (Appennines, in the geographical heart of the peninsula).

    Am I too imaginative?


    Last edited by F.E.C.; 22 January 2006, 03:42 PM.

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  • MMaddi
    Other Sicily R1b's

    Originally posted by F.E.C.
    Here you go Mike:

    393: 13
    390: 24
    19: 15
    391: 10
    385 a,b: 11,14
    426: 12
    388: 12
    439: 11
    389-1: 14
    392: 13
    389-2: 30
    458: 16
    459 a,b: 9,10
    455: 11
    454: 11
    447: 26
    437: 15
    448: 19
    449: 28
    464 a,b,c,d: 15,15,17,17
    460: 11
    H4: 10
    YCA IIa: 19
    YCA IIb: 22
    456: 16
    607: 15
    576: 17
    570: 17
    CDY a: 35
    CDY b: 38
    442: 12

    Hey I'm "Atlantic" and you're "Germanic"!!!...just kidding

    Besides myself, there are 4 other men in the Sicily Project who look to be R1b. None have been SNP-tested, as I have, but all are predicted R1b by Family Tree DNA and they have high percentages for R1b in Whit Athey's predictor.

    I decided to compare your haplotype to theirs and also to the R1b modal haplotype (C7BED) that someone put on None of them are close to you at all. The one with 37 markers is at a genetic distance from you of 15, while the one with 25 markers is a genetic distance from you of 12. There are two with just 12 markers - both are at a genetic distance of 5 from you. The R1b modal I mentioned above is at a genetic distance of 12 from you.

    Interestingly, all four of them are closer in genetic distance to the R1b modal haplotype than you. So you are more unusual for an R1b than any of them.

    The places where you stand out are:

    19=15 (the modal and the other four are 14)
    439=11 (the modal and three of the others are 12)
    389-1=14 (the modal and all four are 13)
    447=26 (the modal and the two with that marker tested are 25)
    449=28 (the modal and the two with that marker tested are 29)
    H4=10 (the modal and the one with that marker tested are 11)
    YCAIIb=22 (the modal and the one with marker tested are 23)
    576=17 (the modal and the one with marker tested are 18)

    I'm not sure what it means, but it doesn't look like your Italian mainland ancestors have much connection to any of the ancestors of these Sicilian descendants.


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  • Astuto
    All Normans weren't a single Hg. All of any large group of peoples weren't a single Hg. We don't know Guiscard's Hg do we? And Guiscard's history isn't confirmed, there are many theories floating around about his origins. One cannot prove he belonged to a specific Hg through surname spellings either. A lot of peoples with similar and same surnames often belong to different Hg. Too much conjecture and attempts to "bend and will" history to fit a Hg around here.

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