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R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) - Can we make sense of it?

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  • #46
    Are R1b1c Sicilians - ancient Valencians?

    Are R1b1c Sicilians - ancient Valencians?


    • #47
      Spanish genes

      Originally Posted by Astuto
      How the hell did your wife obtain your Spanish genes????

      Both my wife and I have exact mtdna matches: U5a1a.

      Astuto - The Spanish/Argonese made it to Sicily.


      • #48
        Originally posted by Hetware
        I've been asking some of the same questions. The article discussing Armenian R1b hinted that it may be a residual trace left by the original migration of our R1b ancestors from Southeast Asia. The authors seemed to be suggesting the distant relationship between Armenian and other IE languages was, likewise, part of the residue. That seems to be way out of the timeframe for linguistic corelations, and is therefore hard to believe.

        There are many possible scenarios which might explain the observed distribution. One of the big factors to consider is whether there was catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea around 5700 BCE. There are some very vocal opponents of the Ryan and Pitman model, but I have yet to see a comprehensive study that convinces me one way or another. All of the people I know of who have rejected the idea have demonstrated that they really don't understand it well.

        It's very difficult for me to know what to make of the limited data available through the fixed queries such as "Recent Ethnic Origins" or "Haplotypgroup". For example, I have close matches to "Russian - Native Siberian" at a much higher frequency than "Russian". Unfortunately I am not told what percentage of "Russian" in the database is represented by "Russian - Native Siberian".

        The simplistic arrow maps shown on the Genographic Project page fail to address the presence of R1b in Siberia, China, Anatolia and Armenia. There is some evidence suggesting the M207, M173, P25 and M17 mutations are far more recent than the 35,000 ybp Iberian refuge model would require. I'm talking more along the lines of 6,000 to 8,000 ybp.

        I recently saw a discussion of the Basques suggesting the current population of Basque speakers may not be, in genetic terms, very representative of the original speakers of the language. I cannot say it was a well researched scholarly report, but it certainly did give me reason to consider alternatives to what I had been thinking. One of the suggestions was that Basque conservatives had imposed their language on some regions which were not originally Basque-speaking.

        It does appear that the aggregate genetic background of the Basques is consistent with the view that they are somewhat of an ethnic isolate.

        I really had little solid notion of what they look like, so I started searching for pictures on the web. I don't know if these are representative, but I'll have to say, these people look a whole lot more like me than do the majority of people in my neighborhood.

        None of the pictures are close enough to show eye color, but they are certainly not all black-haired with dark complexions.

        My REO hits show that I have several cousins in Northern Spain and Portugal, as well as in Latin America. OTOH, I have only one match for a Basque. He is one step removed on 12 markers. That may be an indication of the sample size, but in comparison to 5 Native Siberians at the same distance, I find it probable that I do not have recent Basque male ancestry.
        Obviously the M207, M173, P25 and M17 mutations are more recent.. These mutations define R1b1c! The father haplogroup of R1b1c is R1b1/R1b AMH Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.. It's supposed to be younger, or else we would have a real issue..


        • #49
          Cantabrian M269?

          R1b1c in Cantabrian region is proto-basque?
          Originally posted by johnraciti
          Being R1b does not necessarily mean that your lineage is from Irish/Welsh/Cornish/Basque descent. R1b does make up a percentage of Scandinavia. In Norway and Denmark R1b values DYS390=24 and DYS391=11 are strong and match that of the Pyrenees/Welsh, etc. areas. Values of DYS390=23 and DYS391=11 tend to be Germanic and get more frequent towards the Netherlands.

          Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b

          R1b (previously known as Hg1 and Eu18) is the most prolific haplogroup in Europe and its frequency changes in a cline from west (where it reaches a saturation point of almost 100% in areas of Western Ireland) to east (where it becomes uncommon in parts of Eastern Europe and virtually disappears beyond the Middle East). A R1b haplotype (a set of marker scores indicative of the haplogroup) is very difficult to interpret in that they are found at relatively high frequency in the areas where the Anglo - Saxon and Danish "invaders" originally called home (e.g., 55% in Friesland), and even up to 30% in Norway. Thus a R1b haplotype makes it very challenging to determine the origin of a family with this DNA signature.

          During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000 years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in Northern Spain (see map1). After the glacial retreat about 12,000 years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large numbers (see map 2), and to the east in declining numbers.

          R1b probably arrived in Spain from the east 30,000 years ago among the paleolithic or "old stone age" peoples considered to be aboriginal to Europe). It is believed that everyone who is R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals). Source: Dr. David Faux

          The members of R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) are believed to be the descendants of the first modern humans who entered Europe about 35,000-40,000 years ago ( Aurignacian culture). Those R1b3 forebearers were the people who painted the beautiful art in the caves in Spain and France. They were the modern humans who were the contemporaries - and perhaps exterminators - of the European Neanderthals. Source: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....2003_R1b3.html

          Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer’s permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Source http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....e_surnames.htm

          During the Last Glacial Maximum, R1b produced finely knapped stone 'leaf points' which define the Solutrean culture and were culturally distinct from the people in other European Ice Age refuges who are described more generally as Epi-Gravettian. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, pp 249-50.

          The mates for R1b, about the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, were mtDNA haplogroups H and V. (Haplogroup V was born in the Basque area of the Pyrenees shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, p 251.)

          R1b Subclade Analysis by Ken Nordtvedt

          Haplogroup R1b

          Most of the participants in the Cheek DNA study, including everyone in the main related groups (what we're calling "GROUP 1" and "GROUP 2"), appear to fall into Haplogroup R1b, which is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe. Two participants from GROUP 1 have confirmed this result with an SNP test. The frequency of R1b is highest along the Atlantic coast of Europe (up to 90% of Welsh, Irish, and Basque populations, for example), and declines as you move east. Haplogroup R1b probably originated in a group of people who "wintered" in what is now Spain during the last Ice Age and then moved north when the glaciers retreated 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.

          A subset of the R1b haplogroup known as the "Atlantic Modal Haplotype" (AMH) consists of 6 genetic markers that have been found at high frequencies on the European Atlantic coast, such as Wales, Ireland, the Orkney Islands, and the Basque country. In the British Isles, the AMH is strongly associated with the Celts, including English people with Celtic ancestry ("Anglo-Celts"). Over the last 10,000 years, the British Isles have been home to a wide variety of people, including prehistoric tribes, Celts, Germanic tribes such as the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings from Scandinavia, and, most recently (1066 A.D.) the Normans from France, who were basically French-speaking Vikings. Although historians have usually assumed that the "ancient Britons" (Celts and others) were wiped out by the Anglo-Saxon invasions, or were all pushed into Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall, recent genetic studies show that the native population survived in many parts of England, especially in the southwest and along the southern coast.