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R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) - Can we make sense of it?

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  • #31
    Italian R1b values

    Originally posted by F.E.C.
    John,

    Not only I find it hard to agree on your theory, the point is that the vast majority of Italian R1b (the ones I referred to) are not from Sicily; AAMOF my ggrandfather was from central Italy.

    Maybe you should follow the wide and straight path and consider that most of Sicilian R1b are aboriginal from the mainland.

    Francesco
    Francesco,

    Since you're a mainland Italian R1b and I'm a Sicilian R1b1c, it might be useful to compare marker values and see if anything interesting emerges.

    Here are my marker values:

    393: 13
    390: 23
    19: 14
    391: 11
    385a: 11
    385b: 16
    426: 12
    388: 12
    439: 12
    389-1: 13
    392: 14
    389-2: 30
    458: 17
    459a: 9
    459b: 10
    455: 11
    454: 11
    447: 24
    437: 14
    448: 19
    449: 28
    464a: 14
    464b: 15
    464c: 15
    464d: 15
    460: 10
    GATA H4: 11
    YCA II a: 19
    YCA II b: 23
    456: 16
    607: 15
    576: 18
    570: 19
    CDY a: 38
    CDY b: 40
    442: 11
    438: 12

    Mike

    Comment


    • #32
      Here you go Mike:

      393: 13
      390: 24
      19: 15
      391: 10
      385 a,b: 11,14
      426: 12
      388: 12
      439: 11
      389-1: 14
      392: 13
      389-2: 30
      458: 16
      459 a,b: 9,10
      455: 11
      454: 11
      447: 26
      437: 15
      448: 19
      449: 28
      464 a,b,c,d: 15,15,17,17
      460: 11
      H4: 10
      YCA IIa: 19
      YCA IIb: 22
      456: 16
      607: 15
      576: 17
      570: 17
      CDY a: 35
      CDY b: 38
      442: 12
      438:12

      Hey I'm "Atlantic" and you're "Germanic"!!!...just kidding
      Last edited by F.E.C.; 21 January 2006, 11:48 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Most of Sicilian R1b are aboriginal from mainland Italy.

        Francesco,

        I agree with you, due to the fact that the Sicilian state was connected to the mainland of Calabria.

        I found high percentages of my family's names - coming mainly from Calabria, Campania and Piemonte.

        I would have to agree that most of Sicilian R1b are aboriginal from mainland Italy.

        One Country, One Land, Italia

        John

        Comment


        • #34
          Gallic-Italian - Gallic-Sicilian Culture Vs R1b blood

          We have to understand that the number of actual Normans was never the major part of the invading army, it was supplemented by Lombards (from both the North and South) and other southern Italians, predominantly from around Campania. The Sicilian that was to emerge had as its base, the vulgar latin spoken at that time by the southern Italians of around Campania - but with a very large influence from both Norman French and Lombard. Large Lombard colonies were set up in central Sicily, especially in Piazza Armerina, Aidone and Sperlinga - where to this day, they speak a gallic-Sicilian dialect. Then a contingent of Provencal merceneries were stationed in the town of San Fratello, who to this day speak an unusual provencal-Sicilian dialect (ancient french dialect).

          Comment


          • #35
            All Normans weren't a single Hg. All of any large group of peoples weren't a single Hg. We don't know Guiscard's Hg do we? And Guiscard's history isn't confirmed, there are many theories floating around about his origins. One cannot prove he belonged to a specific Hg through surname spellings either. A lot of peoples with similar and same surnames often belong to different Hg. Too much conjecture and attempts to "bend and will" history to fit a Hg around here.

            Comment


            • #36
              Other Sicily R1b's

              Originally posted by F.E.C.
              Here you go Mike:

              393: 13
              390: 24
              19: 15
              391: 10
              385 a,b: 11,14
              426: 12
              388: 12
              439: 11
              389-1: 14
              392: 13
              389-2: 30
              458: 16
              459 a,b: 9,10
              455: 11
              454: 11
              447: 26
              437: 15
              448: 19
              449: 28
              464 a,b,c,d: 15,15,17,17
              460: 11
              H4: 10
              YCA IIa: 19
              YCA IIb: 22
              456: 16
              607: 15
              576: 17
              570: 17
              CDY a: 35
              CDY b: 38
              442: 12
              438:12

              Hey I'm "Atlantic" and you're "Germanic"!!!...just kidding
              Francesco,

              Besides myself, there are 4 other men in the Sicily Project who look to be R1b. None have been SNP-tested, as I have, but all are predicted R1b by Family Tree DNA and they have high percentages for R1b in Whit Athey's predictor.

              I decided to compare your haplotype to theirs and also to the R1b modal haplotype (C7BED) that someone put on ysearch.org. None of them are close to you at all. The one with 37 markers is at a genetic distance from you of 15, while the one with 25 markers is a genetic distance from you of 12. There are two with just 12 markers - both are at a genetic distance of 5 from you. The R1b modal I mentioned above is at a genetic distance of 12 from you.

              Interestingly, all four of them are closer in genetic distance to the R1b modal haplotype than you. So you are more unusual for an R1b than any of them.

              The places where you stand out are:

              19=15 (the modal and the other four are 14)
              439=11 (the modal and three of the others are 12)
              389-1=14 (the modal and all four are 13)
              447=26 (the modal and the two with that marker tested are 25)
              449=28 (the modal and the two with that marker tested are 29)
              H4=10 (the modal and the one with that marker tested are 11)
              YCAIIb=22 (the modal and the one with marker tested are 23)
              576=17 (the modal and the one with marker tested are 18)

              I'm not sure what it means, but it doesn't look like your Italian mainland ancestors have much connection to any of the ancestors of these Sicilian descendants.

              Mike

              Comment


              • #37
                Thank you Mike,

                I really appreciate your business; anyone who can help me with more clarifications is welcomed.

                Until now, these are the tests I've done: Genographic and 37 marker Y-DNA at FTDNA.
                As you can see, I don't have a SNP test to give me 100% certainty that I'm R1b (not yet, as I'm waiting for imminent EA' s response).
                However, in addition to the GP results and Clary's prediction on the R1b project page, even Whit Athey's test suggests I'm R1b (65%).

                In all likelihood I can say I'm R1b. The curious point, as you noticed, is that some values are quite "odd" and on REO page my closest matches are an Irishman and a Scotsman at 22/25, moreover on Ysearch I could find no matches even at 31/37 (only some Brits at 21/25).

                My "theory" (I'm quite a newbie and I have no presumption) is that we have to trace back the roots of such an uncommon haplotype to a particular R1b "Italic" sub-clade and I'm not talking about so-called hg 35.

                I also take into consideration that the area where my ancestors come from in all these centuries has been less exposed to foreign influence than say Sicily, due to its geography (Appennines, in the geographical heart of the peninsula).

                Am I too imaginative?

                Francesco

                Francesco
                Last edited by F.E.C.; 22 January 2006, 02:42 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  not too imaginative... Maybe your Ancestor was a Foriegn *Gladiator Star* in Rome with a little time off..


                  This linked site's idea of the divisons of ancient Italy shows there were different People around at one time or anothother. http://www.evolpub.com/LCA/VTLmap.html

                  ...and their page on Ancient Languages of Italy
                  http://www.evolpub.com/LCA/VTLhome.html
                  Last edited by M.O'Connor; 22 January 2006, 09:46 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by M.O'Connor
                    not too imaginative... Maybe your Ancestor was a Foriegn *Gladiator Star* in Rome with a little time off..
                    Ridley Scott taught us that Maximus's wife and son (Hispanic R1b) were killed by the evil Emperor Commodus: no he can't be my gggggggrandfather (unless he had an affair with Lucilla...and we know he did!!!)

                    Leaving jokes aside, maybe my haplotype was there before Rome was even founded.
                    You see, so many people are tested in the UK, US and Hispanic countries and nevertheless there is no database giving me reasonably close matches (hell, not even 23-24/25 or 31/37!).
                    So few living in an area roughly corresponding to Marche, Umbria and Latium get tested and it's a pity.

                    Francesco

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Sardinian Y chromosomes

                      From surnames to the history of Y chromosomes: the Sardinian population as a paradigm.

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

                      90% of the Sardinian Y chromosomes fell into haplogroups E-M35, G-M201, I-M26, J-12f2 and R-M269.

                      Note: Very similar to The Sicily Project results to date.

                      The 'Sardinian-specific' haplogroup I-M26 showed both a significantly higher incidence in the central-eastern (archaic) area and a significantly lower frequency in the northern area.

                      The ancestral homeland of this specific subset of haplogroup I is: the mountainous central-eastern area of Sardinia.

                      The population: underwent a long history of isolation since ancient times, and highlight the informative power of the surname analysis.

                      Note: R-M269 - Is the oldest of the haplogroups found in Italy. R-M269 (R1b) is native to Italy; mainland Italy, Sicily and Sardinia.
                      Last edited by johnraciti; 26 January 2006, 05:49 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        R-M269 came from Germany before coming from the Pyrenees into Italy.

                        The R-M269 Y-chromosomes - the gene pool of the ancestral population(s) of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area.

                        "The Molecular Dissection of mtDNA Haplogroup H Confirms That the Franco-Cantabrian Glacial Refuge Was a Major Source for the European Gene Pool".

                        H1* is reasonably represented in Germany...

                        One could say the R-M269 Y chromosomes - that populated Italy; mainland Italy, Sicily and Sardinia came from Germany before coming from the Pyrenees.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by johnraciti
                          Francesco,

                          I agree with you, due to the fact that the Sicilian state was connected to the mainland of Calabria.

                          I found high percentages of my family's names - coming mainly from Calabria, Campania and Piemonte.

                          I would have to agree that most of Sicilian R1b are aboriginal from mainland Italy.
                          Other than the Greek, Carthaginian, Vandal, Ostragothic(twice), Byzantine, Ottoman, Norman, German and Spanish contributions, there really are very few other candidates.

                          Originally posted by johnraciti
                          One Country, One Land, Italia

                          John
                          http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/wel...1105292729.jpg
                          Just kidding!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Hetware
                            Other than the Greek, Carthaginian, Vandal, Ostragothic(twice), Byzantine, Ottoman, Norman, German and Spanish contributions, there really are very few other candidates.
                            I think we can say it is a little more likely for a Sicilian R1b to have a mainland Italian heritage then a Carthaginian one...just a little
                            Het, don't be polemical just for the taste of it...

                            Hei what's Paolo Di Canio doing there???

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              My R1b Matches are found in the following countries:

                              Belgium 7%
                              Pyrenees, Spain 6% Europe
                              Brescia, Italy 6% Europe
                              Wales 6%
                              Azores 6%
                              Galicia 5%
                              British Isles 5%
                              Birmingham, UK 5% Europe
                              Ireland 5% Europe
                              Netherlands 5%
                              Leuven, Belgium 4% Europe
                              Great Britain 4%
                              Isle of Man 4%
                              Scotland 4%
                              Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] 4% Latin America
                              Canada 3%
                              England 3%
                              France 3%
                              Iceland 3%
                              Ireland 3%
                              Portugal 3%
                              Spain 3%
                              United Kingdom 3%
                              Northern Portugal 3% Europe
                              Sao Paulo State, Brazil [European] 3% Latin America

                              I am starting to think that my Y has come from the Pyrenees, Spain (Iberian-Celtic). Then I have slowly migrated to France, Italy then into Sicily (Paternal).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Are R1b1c Sicilians - ancient Celto-Ligurians of North Italy?

                                Are R1b1c Sicilians (The Sicanians, an Iberian nation) - ancient Celto-Ligurians of North Italy?

                                Note: The Ligures inhabited what now corresponds to Liguria, northern Tuscany, Piedmont, part of Lombardy, and parts of southeastern France.

                                Reference:

                                Dionysius of Halicarnassus
                                Roman Antiquities

                                Sicily: Occupied by the Sicanians, an Iberian nation, who, fleeing from the Ligurians, had but lately settled there and had caused the island, previously named Trinacria, from its triangular shape, to be called Sicania, after themselves. There were very few inhabitants in it for so large an island, and the greater part of it was as yet unoccupied. Accordingly, when the Sicels landed there they first settled in the western parts and afterwards in several others; and from these people the island began to be called Sicily.

                                The Ligures (Ligurians) were an ancient people who gave their name to Liguria, which once stretched from Northern Italy into southern Gaul. The Ligures inhabited what now corresponds to Liguria, northern Tuscany, Piedmont, part of Lombardy, and parts of southeastern France. Classical references and toponomastics suggests that the Ligurian sphere once extended further into central Italy. It is not known for certain whether they were a pre-Indo-European people akin to Iberians; a separate Indo-European branch with Italic and Celtic affinities; or even a branch of the Celts. Kinship between the Ligures and Lepontii has also been proposed.

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