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R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) - Can we make sense of it?

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  • #16
    The Peloponnesian War and it's H1 R1b R1b3 R-M269 Legacy

    Could The Sicani be related to The Aurignacian Culture - found in Iberia near the river Sicanus in Spain?

    If so, Hg1 R1b R1b3 R-M269 members from Sicily - could well be related to earliest settlers The Sicani. This in a sense makes us native to the island. We could very well be native Sicilians - Pre-Historic natives.

    "The Sicaneans were reputed to be the first inhabitants of Sicily,
    they built little Villages or Towns upon hills, and every Town had
    its own King; and by this means they spread over the country,
    before they formed themselves into larger governments with a
    common King: Philistus [216] saith that they were transplanted
    into Sicily from the River Sicanus in Spain; and Dionysius [217],
    that they were a Spanish people who fled from the Ligures in Italy;
    he means the Ligures [218] who opposed Hercules when he
    returned from his expedition against Geryon in Spain, and
    endeavoured to pass the Alps out of Gaul into Italy. Hercules that
    year got into Italy, and made some conquests there, and founded
    the city Croton; and [219] after winter, upon the arrival of his fleet
    from Erythra in Spain, sailed to Sicily, and there left the Sicani: for
    it was his custom to recruit his army with conquered people, and
    after they had assisted him in making new conquests to reward
    them with new seats: this was the Egyptian Hercules, who had a
    potent fleet, and in the days of Solomon sailed to the Straits, and
    according to his custom set up pillars there, and conquered
    Geryon, and returned back by Italy and Sicily to Egypt, and was by
    the ancient Gauls called Ogmius, and by Egyptians [220] Nilus: for
    Erythra and the country of Geryon were without the Straits.
    Dionysius [221] represents this Hercules contemporary to

    .... The Sicanians appear to have been the next settlers, although
    they pretend to have been the first of all and aborigines; but the
    facts show that they were Iberians, driven by the Ligurians from
    the river Sicanus in Iberia. It was from them that the island, before
    called Trinacria, took its name of Sicania, and to the present day
    they inhabit the west of Sicily....

    "It [Sicily] was inhabited in old time, thus; and these were the
    nations that held it. Cyclopes and Læstrigones. The most ancient
    inhabitants in a part thereof, are said to have been the Cyclopes
    and Læstrigones: of whose stock, and whence they came or to
    what place they removed, I have nothing to say. Let that suffice
    which the poets have spoken, and which every particular man hath
    learned of them. Sicanians.After them, the first that appear to have
    dwelt therein, are the Sicanians, as they say themselves; nay,
    before the other, as being the natural breed of the island. But the
    truth is, they were Iberians; and driven away by the Ligyans
    [Ligurians] from the banks of Sicanus [Júcar River in Valencia], a
    river on which they were seated in Iberia. Sicania, Trinacria. And
    the island from them came to be called Sicania, which was before
    Trinacria. And these [two] inhabit yet in the western parts of Sicily.
    Trojans. After the taking of Ilium certain Trojans, escaping the
    hands of the Grecians, landed with small boats in Sicily: and
    having planted themselves on the borders of the Sicanians, both
    the nations in one were called Elymi; and their cities were Eryx
    and Egesta. Hard by these came and dwelled also certain
    Phoceans, who coming from Troy, were by tempest carried first
    into Afric, and thence into Sicily. Siculi. But the Siculi passed out
    of Italy, (for there they inhabited), flying from the Opici [Oscans],
    having, as is most likely and as it is reported, observed the strait,
    and with a fore wind gotten over in boats which they made
    suddenly on the occasion, or perhaps by some other means. [...]
    There is at this day a people in Italy called Siculi."

    The Sicanians appear to have succeeded these early races,
    although according to their own account they were still older; for
    they profess to have been children of the soil. But the fact proves
    to be that they were Iberians, and were driven from the river
    Sicanus in Iberia by the Ligurians. Sicily, which was originally
    called Trinacria, received from them the name Sicania. To this day
    the Sicanians inhabit the western parts of the island. (3) After the
    capture of Troy, some Trojans who had escaped from the
    Achaeans came in ships to Sicily; they settled near the Sicanians,
    and took the common name of Elymi but had two separate cities,
    Eryx and Egesta THUCYDIDES


    • #17
      Originally posted by johnraciti
      The town of my paternal ancestors is Mezzojuso. Now how did a Sicilian town come to have a "j" in its name, when there is no "j" in the Italian language? I suspect it had something to do with the Spanish rule?
      Not necessarily...until recently, lots of italian words had, in many cases, we have only substituted j with i...
      Last edited by F.E.C.; 17 January 2006, 11:50 AM.


      • #18
        Originally posted by johnraciti
        I showed my wife those photos. We are both Sicilian-Italian.

        We agree that - they look like Italians, Greeks, and Spaniards...

        I have some Spanish genes; I am a Merlo, Serraino/Serrano, Zingali/Zingales. Both my wife and first daughter look Spanish. Where has my second daughter and I carry fair eyes & hair. My wife's father and maternal grandmother had green & blue eyes. My wife has very fair skin. Where my first daughter and I have the ability to tan better than my wife and second daughter.
        John, why is it that people in America think all Italians and Sicilians have dark eyes and Black hair? Most of the Italians I have met look more like James Gandolfini of the Sapranos and look white. LOL.

        Of course the Spanish, Italians and Greeks all look the same they have been there for thousands of years in the same climate.


        • #19
          Originally posted by johnraciti
          R1b3 is the most common Y haplogroup among men of European descent. Fourteen of the 30 most common haplotypes in the database are typical of R1b3. (Those haplotypes can be seen here). While several R1b3 sub-haplogroups have been identified, it turns out that they are only seen among very small percentages of R1b3's. The majority of men in this haplogroup belong to none of these sub-haplogroups and are therefore most properly classified as belonging to R1b3*. (More information about R1b3 sub-groups is available here). However the R1b3*s can be divided into two large identifiable groups by the results of a RFLP test of the 49a,f Taq/I locus. The R1b3*'s in Western Europe mostly have 49a,f Taq/I results that are categorized as "haplotype 15" (ht15). The R1b3*'s seen in Turkey, and Iraq have a different 49a,f Taq/I haplotype known as ht35. Al-Zahery et al in their paper on Iraq theorize that ht35 is actually the ancestral haplotype for R1b3*s. Cinnioglu et al speculate that the ht35 R1b3*s may have spent the Last Glacial Maximum in an Asia Minor refugium while the ht15 R1b3*s were in an Iberian refugium.''
          From what I have seen, the numbers appear to be extremely different between different studies related to this division.


          • #20
            I totally agree. It's so true.

            People in Australia - also think that all Italians and Sicilians have dark eyes and Black hair.

            They haven't meet my dad yet and his tribe from Randazzo Catania, Sicilia.

            He looks Aussie. His is Celtic-Saxon looking. Both my folks came to the land down under during the 1960's during The White Australian Policy.

            I grew up with Aussie mates/friends - with the same colour eyes as them - (green-blue). Their parents - couldn't understand how I was Celtic looking. They were really good people. They took me in as their own. This happened way before I found out that I was a R1b.

            It was my brother-in-law a Scotsman that convinced me to get the dna test. He is a Human biologist – that had predicted – I would be of Celtic origin. He was on the ball with that prediction.

            Both my wife and first daughter have dark brown eyes and dark brown hair. My wife’s sister and brother have black hair. I have that combination on my mother’s side – with a 1 in 11 chance of getting blue eyes from a great-grandmother. But, on my father’s side – there always was a higher percentage of getting the blonde and blue/green eyes.

            I’ll give you a clearer answer – once I find out the results of my wife. Once I found out where the browns come from I’ll have a clearer picture of what we are.
            Last edited by ; 17 January 2006, 08:08 PM.


            • #21
              Originally posted by johnraciti
              Being R1b does not necessarily mean that your lineage is from Irish/Welsh/Cornish/Basque descent. R1b does make up a percentage of Scandinavia. In Norway and Denmark R1b values DYS390=24 and DYS391=11 are strong and match that of the Pyrenees/Welsh, etc. areas. Values of DYS390=23 and DYS391=11 tend to be Germanic and get more frequent towards the Netherlands.

              Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b

              R1b (previously known as Hg1 and Eu18) is the most prolific haplogroup in Europe and its frequency changes in a cline from west (where it reaches a saturation point of almost 100% in areas of Western Ireland) to east (where it becomes uncommon in parts of Eastern Europe and virtually disappears beyond the Middle East).
              Read this carefully:


              • #22
                Imagine that, a guy that can predict your haplogroup just by LOOKING AT YOU! Let's all send him a photo and see how accurate he is...


                • #23
                  Stop it!!!

                  What the hell an Italian looks like???
                  I'm so tired: Italians are blond...Italians are dark...
                  How can I make you understand that you can't predict the Italians' complexion or hair colour the same way you do with, for example, Norwegians?

                  There is the blond, finnish-looking guy and the moorish guy...and both of them are 100% Italians with an Italian surname and way of life!
                  Sure, in the North there are more fair haired guy with milky complexion than in the South.
                  That is due either to climate differences, so various in Italy (Greek and Spanish climates are totally different stories), and to the diversity of historical invaders.

                  Yet when you're walking in the streets you really can' t say "oh that curly guy's got sicilian-arab ancestors...that beanpole over there is goth".
                  We're all Italians and we are part of one of the ethnically most homogeneous people in Europe.



                  • #24
                    Should R1b population be classified into: "Atlantic" "Germanic"?

                    Should R1b population be classified into:

                    (i) "Atlantic" (with two sub-groups "Celtic" & "Iberian"), and

                    (ii) "Germanic" (with two sub-groups, "NorthSea", and "South German/Alpine")?


                    • #25
                      I think it wouldn't be an exhaustive classification


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by F.E.C.
                        I think it wouldn't be an exhaustive classification
                        In my case it would seem rather bizarre since my haplotype is evenly distributed among all those populations. It certainly wouldn't reflect the historical distribution of "Celtic" and "Germanic" cultures. Shall determine the most frequent haplotype in Halstatt and Le Tene and select that as the Celtic Modal Haplotype? I suspect you will not have much luck trying to assign a particular R1b variant to any particular ethnolinguistic division in Europe. You might find some rare variant among the Basques and label it as "Basque", but that would imply all other "Basques" are somehow illegitimate which would almost certainly be an error.


                        • #27
                          Also in Italy there are some R1b that seem to differ from either an ipothetical "German" or "Atlantic" population.
                          Being an Italian R1b, this is an interesting issue to me and I hope to have an answer very soon as I've been informed that my samples have just reached EA's labs for a SNP "the works" test.



                          • #28
                            24 at marker 390

                            R1b Ancient Spanish origins - Basques (Ancient Iberians)
                            Celt Iberian

                            The Irish Q Celtic - 24 at marker 390

                            Sicilian R1b3 - 24 at marker 390

                            Are the Basques both the first natives of Ireland and of Sicily?

                            Is this why we see biological similarities between Irish and Sicilians - due to our ancient Spanish origins?

                            Or could be to be due the Scots-Irish Elliott Clan going to Sicily?

                            Aliots in Normandy - and Aliotos in Sicily - descended from the Norman knights who followed Robert Guiscard to Italy.


                            • #29
                              What could the answer be???


                              • #30

                                Not only I find it hard to agree on your theory, the point is that the vast majority of Italian R1b (the ones I referred to) are not from Sicily; AAMOF my ggrandfather was from central Italy.

                                Maybe you should follow the wide and straight path and consider that most of Sicilian R1b are aboriginal from the mainland.

                                Last edited by F.E.C.; 21 January 2006, 11:46 AM.