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Indo-European Urheimat Mystery

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  • #16
    Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
    Uh oh, wrong example The Kalash were never part of the Aryan migration to India, but they are descendants of Alexander's Greeks who stayed back.
    Unless Alexander's boys contributed a whole lot of MtDNA to the mix, that is unlikely,


    • #17
      Hetware, good points. It is possible the little children are Greek descendants but like you said, how can one prove this.

      Good point also about Italy and blue eyes. That is where I was going with what I mentioned about manipulation. Seems we have a propensity to cheer for the home team. Trying to force a particular Haplogroup into a hole because it happens to be "ours" if you know what I mean.

      I'm no expert in these areas so I just try to stay aware of the big picture. Reading all of the posts is great learning experience.


      • #18
        I moved this from

        Originally posted by la_roccia
        More than one Haplogroup contributed to the development of the IE language tree the same as more than one contributed to what we call Germanic peoples, Italic peoples etc. There is no IE Haplogroup or Germanic Haplogroup....

        This thread has really spun its wheels, doesn't it get old?

        We can't force a Haplogroup(s) to fit our view of history. They have scientists that study these things for a living so it might be cool to relax and see what they come up with.
        Why should I leave it to "scientists" to determine for me what the facts are in this matter? It appears that on many points I have been right over the years when the "experts" have been wrong.

        As for Haplogroups and language. You may or may not be correct about whether we can connect language movements and haplogroups. What seems quite obvious to me is that the model put forth by the Genographic Project fails to address some striking anomalies. People seem to repeat the LGM refugia assignments as if they were proven facts rather than the latest hypotheses. In my mind, there is a huge question regarding whether the Black Sea flooded as proposed by Ryan and Pitman. Some people claim to have refuted the model, but others don't seem to accept the refutation. What I've discovered is that some people who claim to be expert in the area don't even understand the basics of what was proposed.


        • #19
          New SNPs in haplogroup I

          This came from:

          From an announcement in the GENEALOGY-DNA-L list.
          There are also four new markers within hg I, which together with a marker launched previously (S23) bring considerably improved resolution to the group as a whole. S31 is a new marker which unites haplogroups I1b and I1c and two I1* groups. S23, S30, S32 and S33 unite one of these I1* groups and hg I1c. Renaming of the groups will thus be required - I1b will become I1b1, one of the I1* groups becomes I1b*, the other I1* group becomes I1b2* and I1c will become I1b2a if the nomenclature is followed."

          The new I1b-S31 is a new link between Balkan and NW European haplogroup I chromosomes. Together with the previous announcement of haplogroup IJ-S22, the new SNP is helping us better trace the movements of the multiple waves of migrants into Europe through the Balkans.


          • #20
            S22 shared by Y-haplogroups I and J

            Ethnoancestry has announced today a new SNP in the GENEALOGY-DNA-L list:

            “Ethnoancestry is pleased to announce the launch of a new SNP, S22, which unites haplogroups I and J to the exclusion of G, H and K, within the F supergroup. This SNP may be interesting for anyone in the rare F* group, or anyone within hg I or J who is interested to confirm their status at this marker.”
            The new internal branch of IJ-S22 is an exciting new development. We had previously known that the ancestors of haplogroup I arrived in Europe from West Asia in Upper Paleolithic times. Subsequently, haplogroup J bearers also entered Europe from the same region, during the Holocene.

            The new discovery is the "missing link" between these two groups, establishing their common ancestry.

            Interestingly, the regions inhabited today by I and J bearers are primarily found on a "corridor" from the Middle East through Asia Minor, the Balkans, Central Europe to Scandinavia. To the west of this region, haplogroup R1b is more important, and to the east, haplogroup R1a1.

            This same corridor has also been identified by physical anthropologists in the past as the route by which leptoprosopic southern Europoids migrated into Europe, forming a "wedge" between the indigenous broad-faced northern Europoids. Thus, the strong metrical similarity between modern Nordics (found principally in Scandinavia, a nexus of I concentration), and modern Mediterraneans (from West Asia and Southeastern Europe, a nexus of J concentration) can be interpreted as a consequene of their common descent. This suggestion is not new, having been proposed by Carleton Coon in his Races of Europe in 1939, although dating this common descent was obviously inaccurate before the advent of carbon dating and the molecular clock.


            • #21
              Originally posted by Mikey
              To write unequivocally that some blue-eyed Indian is the descendant of Alexander's Greeks is just hogwash.

              All it does is betray the fact that you know about one famous historical migration that took place in the first millenium BC.
              Some of the people do claim to be descendants of Alexander's armies. The problem is that, of the samples anylized, 100% of the MtDNA turned out to be "Western European". What I find interesting about that is the fact that they seem to be a mix from several of the different clades associated with Western Europe.

              Originally posted by Mikey

              There were tens (hundreds?) of other migration events that took place between the emergence of the blue-eyed gene (yet undated) and the emergence of the haplogroups we discuss (c. 40,000 kya).
              At one point, I had found a good paper on the estimated time-depth of the various mutations, but I can't seem to locate it. What is your source on the 40 kya figure?

              Originally posted by Mikey
              But, didn't Suetonius and others write about ancients with blonde hair?

              Sorry again - when he wrote that the emperor Nero had "blonde" hair, he meant DYED blonde hair, which Roman women and homosexuals often sported. He was commenting on Nero's proclivities, not his natural hair color.
              That sounds like conjecture upon conjecture. Suetonius wrote long after Nero lived, and probably improvised greatly.

              Originally posted by Mikey
              Almost all extant mosaics of the Greeks, Romans and Etruscans portray them with the same mostly dark(er) features of the same modern populations.
              There are some notable and telling exceptions. Bear in mind also that Alexander was not "Greek" per se, but rather Macedonian, which is a bit to the north of Greece, proper.

              Originally posted by Mikey
              This is not to say there were no blondes and blue eyed. 50% of SOUTHERN Italy has blue eyes, and it ain't all from invasions.
              That doesn't sound correct. A randomly mating population with any significant number of brown-eyed people will reach an equilibrium at 25% assuming the overly simplistic, but roughly accurate, on-off model of blue-eyed recessive genes. There would need to be a significant bias in choosing a mate for 50% to be realistic.

              Originally posted by Mikey
              But to write unequivocally that some blue eyed Indian is a descendant of Alexander's 3000 men is patently ludicrous.
              Particularly since there are several accounts in Indian, Chinese and European records of people with flaxen or red hair and blue, green or cerulean eyes in ancient Asia.


              • #22
                52 Kya in Orkney

                I believe it is important to examine the archaeological record of Europe to determine how much, if any Indo-European "invasion" might have occured. The structure known as Masehowe in Orkney dates to around 3200 BCE. By way of comparrison, that puts it about 100 years before the first apperance of Egyptian hieroglyphics, 625 years before the Great Pyramids were started.

                • What can be said about the people who built Masehow?
                • Has any effort been made to extract DNA from human remains from the site?
                • Anthropometric studies?
                • Can the structure be connected to others in the region and period?
                • What contemporanious activities are attested to in Europe?
                • Could they have been IE-Speakers?
                • Did they use wheeled vehicles?
                • Did they have horses?
                • Sheep?
                • Cattle?
                • Were they ancestors of the current residents of Orkney?
                Last edited by Hetware; 12 January 2006, 11:40 AM.


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mikey
                  Tell me about it.

                  To write unequivocally that some blue-eyed Indian is the descendant of Alexander's Greeks is just hogwash.

                  All it does is betray the fact that you know about one famous historical migration that took place in the first millenium BC.

                  But to write unequivocally that some blue eyed Indian is a descendant of Alexander's 3000 men is patently ludicrous.
                  Mr. Jumping-to-conclusions,
                  I don't think I said all blondes in the neighborhood are Greeks, I was talking about THE KALASH in particular.
                  BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service

                  All it does is betray the fact that you know nothing about the region apart from what the mainstream books told you.

                  You have a few options with the hogwash you discovered, one of which is to fly to Pakistan and convince the Kalash that their oral history is hogwash. Or maybe you can try convincing the Greek volunteers out there to help the Kalash. I wont go into the remaining options, but please spare me from it. Good Luck.

                  Quoting article-
                  "according to their oral history, by settlers from Alexander the Great's armies in 377 BC."
                  "persistent efforts to convert them to Islam by neighbouring Muslim populations who historically labelled them Kafirs (non-believers)"
                  "Athanasios Lerounis, who established the Greek Volunteers NGO in the Bumburat valley. "
                  Last edited by R1a_M17_India; 12 January 2006, 02:16 PM.


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hetware
                    Unless Alexander's boys contributed a whole lot of MtDNA to the mix, that is unlikely,
                    The Kalash are a small sized community,a few thousands only. It is not my theory, but the belief of the Kalash themselves as well as people around them


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
                      The Kalash are a small sized community,a few thousands only. It is not my theory, but the belief of the Kalash themselves as well as people around them
                      I am aware of the legends. There may be a bit of truth to it, but I don't believe it will be reflected in the MtDNA. My understanding is their language is related to that of Kowar.

                      The ruins of Shahr-i-Gholghola—variously known as the City of Silence, the City of Noise or the Cursed City—tower above the Bamiyan plains of central Afghanistan, a single watchtower left of what, until its destruction in 1222, was a flourishing city on the Silk Route between Europe and China. Antitank mines left by a Soviet garrison in the 1980s deter visitors from exploring the caves and tunnels where the Taliban sheltered from coalition bombing last fall. On the other side of the plateau are sandstone cliffs honeycombed with caves and the empty niches that held the two giant Bamiyan Buddhas, which the Taliban dynamited last year. From nearby hills comes the sound of short, methodical bursts of automatic fire. It's nothing to be concerned about, local soldiers posted on the top of the ruins say, just secret training by American special forces and the British Special Air Services (sas). They have horses and motorbikes in a secluded valley a few kilometers away, apparently, and are practicing maneuvers. There are no al-Qaeda around here, soldiers say. They must be training for some other war.

                      The lugubrious names bestowed on the ruins refer to a few days of horror in 1222, when Genghis Khan's armies razed the city and massacred all its inhabitants as punishment for resistance. You can still find human bones here, says Nasir, my guide. The Taliban were great art looters as well as destroyers, it seems: they dug here for treasure and, in the process, brought human remains to the surface. To illustrate this, Nasir pokes around in an earthen bank with a stick, discarding bits of animal bones, and finally pulls out a human vertebra. The soldiers offer a more pleasant souvenir: fragments of pottery, smashed by Genghis Khan's men. "Take it, they're everywhere," one man says. "We just throw it away."


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hetware
                        I am aware of the legends. There may be a bit of truth to it, but I don't believe it will be reflected in the MtDNA. My understanding is their language is related to that of Kowar.
                        I missed something, were you talking about mtDNA when you posted those pictures? I definitely dont think Greeks could have contributed to the mtDNA pool. I thought you were trying to strengthen the theory of Indo-European migration by posting those pictures

                        In response all I wanted to say is that those pictures were the wrong ones to post as an example, because the Kalash were definitely not part of the migrating Vedic crowds, they are more recent arrivals. They could be part Greeks as they claim or a mix of something else.

                        That was before Mr Mikey jumped on it.
                        Last edited by R1a_M17_India; 12 January 2006, 07:20 PM.


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mikey
                          Now we have some good replies! Great dialogue here.

                          To Hetware re: sources. There are sources, and then there are sources. I love Wikipedia, donate to it, etc., but it is not a source. ANYONE can edit it, and your stuff will appear for at least a couple hours. My neighborhood here in Portland even has its own entry.
                          It depends what you mean. I seriously doubt I have misled anybody by posting a link to the wiki on Krasnoyarsk Krai. All I wanted to provide was a little blurb. The correlation to Hyperborea is, of course, questionable, but I also provided a reference to scholarly works that provide the basis for the speculation. About all the Wiki article provided was the name of the place, and its location on a map. Anybody with a passing knowledge of relevant matters would appreciate the significance.

                          The Wiki on the Germanic substrate hypothesis doesn't require a lot of justification either. It simply states a few speculations which I have said are consistent with my own. The operative word here is hypothesis.

                          Originally posted by Mikey
                          I stick to the scientific papers (the research or "facts") and interpret them. It is always best to go to the data source and interpret it, rather than interpret someone else's interpretations.
                          I have referenced far more scientific work in this discussion than any other participant.

                          Originally posted by Mikey
                          But Derinos, you should know that the majority of experts (Cavalli Sforza and Renfrew, to name two) thoroughly discredit this theory. For two reasons:
                          Quite to the contrary. First of all Cavalli Sforza is a geneticist not a linguists. Furthermore, what you are asserting to have been discredited is still the standard practice of archeolinguistics. Anybody who has spent any time studying the subject understands the plasticity of a lexecon over time. That hardly constitutes a refutation.


                          • #28
                            Who were the People of the Indus valley? Somewhere in Pakistan's remoteness there must be a grave or two? Did they eat the bones too!


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by dentate
                              Thank you la roccia and your quote from Dr. Kashyap, for bringing the only modern scientific and genetic contribution to this otherwise wildly speculative thread.
                              % of R1b per population according to Enthnoancestry:

                              Basque 89
                              Ireland 89
                              England 64
                              N Italy 62
                              Schleswig-Holstein 47
                              Iceland 41
                              Armenia 36
                              Maori 33
                              Denmark 33
                              Norway 31
                              Greece 28
                              Sardinia 22
                              Uyghur 18
                              Greenland Inuit 17
                              Poland 16
                              Cheyenne 16
                              Turkey 15
                              Georgia 14
                              Iraq 11
                              Croatia 10
                              Uzbek 10
                              Ashkenazi Jews 10
                              Namibian Bantu 8
                              Punjab 8
                              Selkup 6
                              India 6
                              Kazakh 6
                              Russia 4
                              Iran 4
                              Navajo 3
                              Saami 2
                              Ukraine 2
                              Udmurt (Volga) 2
                              Kyrgyz 2
                              Manchu 2
                              Siberian Yakut 2
                              Siberian Buryat 1
                              Mongolia 1


                              • #30
                                I was greatly disappointed with ethnoancestry's web site. Seems to me to be a lot of repeated pseudoscience which has now been at least partially discredited.

                                In an unrelated note, is that R1b figure for the Maori correct? Can't be.