R1b Diversity: East vs. West

[Hetware]

My understanding of how researchers typically determine the "older" populations when dealing with a widespread haplogroup is by assessing the diversity within a region. From what I've read, the European R1b seems relatively uniform in comparrison to that in India, Central Asia and Anatolia. I have to admit, the data seems to be comming out faster than I can assimilate it.

What is the current thinking on the origin and diversity of R1b? I believe it is found at relatively high frequencies in placeses such as Andrah Pradesh in India and Sri Lanka. Does the R1b diversity in Europe really attest to a 35,000 year old, relatively isolated genepool?

[MMaddi]

Current understanding of R1b

My understanding of how researchers typically determine the "older" populations when dealing with a widespread haplogroup is by assessing the diversity within a region. From what I've read, the European R1b seems relatively uniform in comparrison to that in India, Central Asia and Anatolia. I have to admit, the data seems to be comming out faster than I can assimilate it.

What is the current thinking on the origin and diversity of R1b? I believe it is found at relatively high frequencies in placeses such as Andrah Pradesh in India and Sri Lanka. Does the R1b diversity in Europe really attest to a 35,000 year old, relatively isolated genepool?

It certainly seems that recent developments in yDNA testing are knocking down the perception that R1b is a European "plain vanilla" catch-all haplogroup. This includes the theory that the source of all European R1b's were the inhabitants of the Spanish refugium during the LGM. As you write above, there is substantial evidence of a long R1b presence in South Asia. There is also the theory of R1b ht35, which is the R1b that originated in Anatolia and wintered the Ice Age in the Balkans or Italy. R1b ht15 is the mainstream European form that was in the Spanish refugium and is supposedly younger than ht35.

John Raciti has already posted this link in other threads on this board, but I'm posting it again. It's useful in pulling together some credible theories about R1b that answer your question. It comes from the website of Ethnoancestry, a testing company which has discovered several new R1b SNPs that define new subclades of R1b1c. Here's the link: http://www.ethnoancestry.com/EAM269Sept05.htm This history of R1b asserts its formation about 47,000+ years ago in the area of present-day Pakistan. There is also some information in this history on the question of ht35 vs. ht15 and also about the newly discovered S21 SNP.

Mike Maddi

[Hetware]

It certainly seems that recent developments in yDNA testing are knocking down the perception that R1b is a European "plain vanilla" catch-all haplogroup. This includes the theory that the source of all European R1b's were the inhabitants of the Spanish refugium during the LGM. As you write above, there is substantial evidence of a long R1b presence in South Asia. There is also the theory of R1b ht35, which is the R1b that originated in Anatolia and wintered the Ice Age in the Balkans or Italy. R1b ht15 is the mainstream European form that was in the Spanish refugium and is supposedly younger than ht35.

Mike Maddi

I remain skeptical as to the amount of ht15 present in different populations, and how it got there. One article I recently read suggested a good portion of the "AMH" in the Na Dene of North America was from pre-Columbian migration from Siberia. It is certainly present beyond the confines of Europe, and some of that appears to predate the recent European expansion. The lack of diversity in the European ht15 suggests that a 30,000 year isolation is not realistic.

Something is just not adding up. One thing that makes this all the more difficult is the fact that authors often use different means of representing the same haplogroup. That is true even when they are using the YCC nomenclature.

[BlackWolf]

My understanding of how researchers typically determine the "older" populations when dealing with a widespread haplogroup is by assessing the diversity within a region. From what I've read, the European R1b seems relatively uniform in comparrison to that in India, Central Asia and Anatolia. I have to admit, the data seems to be comming out faster than I can assimilate it.

What is the current thinking on the origin and diversity of R1b? I believe it is found at relatively high frequencies in placeses such as Andrah Pradesh in India and Sri Lanka. Does the R1b diversity in Europe really attest to a 35,000 year old, relatively isolated genepool?

Well Hetware, I have to agree on this one. Yes, I also believe R1b is not a 35K old isolated genepool. There are some groups such as the Basque R1b and probably some in isolated pockets of R1b in Italy and the British Isles.

However, almost all European languages are of the Indo-European group and are related. I theorize that R1b in Iberia and across Europe including the British Isles could not have adopted nor have had forced cultural and linguistic assimilation during the Neolithic. People at the time of that which has been suggested were just too scarce. A invading group of tribes in waves would have all the males killed and possibly women and children, simple supply and demand as far as food sources because people in this time period were just too scarce.

The "Invasion forced assimilation" concepts came much later such as the Anglo Saxon forced assimilation of the Native Brythonic Celt.

In my theory I speculate that R1b "Celtic" replaced R1b "Native European" except for small pockets such as the Basque who by the way have always been (and still are today) fierce fighters of there culture and people.

Perhaps as more subclades of R1b are found a more clear picture can start to develop as far as IE R1b, Celtic R1b and Native Europe R1b.

[Hetware]

Well Hetware, I have to agree on this one. Yes, I also believe R1b is not a 35K old isolated genepool. There are some groups such as the Basque R1b and probably some in isolated pockets of R1b in Italy and the British Isles.

However, almost all European languages are of the Indo-European group and are related. I theorize that R1b in Iberia and across Europe including the British Isles could not have adopted nor have had forced cultural and linguistic assimilation during the Neolithic. People at the time of that which has been suggested were just too scarce.

To tell the truth, I really am at a loss to know what to believe, or even how to begin explaining the different conflicting kinds of evidence. Though the geneticists are providing a powerful new means of investigating the mystery, and are obviously very intelligent people, they are not experts in all other areas pertinent to understanding the past. The same can be said for researchers in the other fields. The cilmatologists will not be experts in the archaeology of ancient civilizations; the excavator of civilizations will likely not know all that might be relevant regarding paleontology, etc.

The working hypotheses we form in order to make sense of the evidence tend to border on the verge of out-and-out mythology, or at least legend.

A invading group of tribes in waves would have all the males killed and possibly women and children, simple supply and demand as far as food sources because people in this time period were just too scarce.

I don't believe that is really the case. There were substantial populations in Europe for thousands of years. It is unlikely that all of the previous inhabitants were wiped out by a relatively recent immigraqtion. For one, if the incoming population was not extraordinarily huge, they simply would not have covered every nook and cranny. of the continent. You can point to the Basques as a counter example, but I believe the view that the IE "invaded Europe" during the late bronze, or early iron age, resulting in a substantial genetic replacement is probably wrong.

I will, however, note that there do seem to have been some iron age systemmatic killings in parts of what is now France. I would have to do some research to find a reference

The "Invasion forced assimilation" concepts came much later such as the Anglo Saxon forced assimilation of the Native Brythonic Celt.

In his important book Catastrophe, David Keys put forth a persuasive argument that the Anglo-Saxons did not invade England in the violent sense that has traditionally been reported. Keys argued that the real slayer of the Brythonic Celts was a flee bitten rodent.

Mind you, the Germanic people were not mindless, lawless savages driven by nothing but base instinct.

Thomas Jefferson in this letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814:

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law...This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it...that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians...".

In my theory I speculate that R1b "Celtic" replaced R1b "Native European" except for small pockets such as the Basque who by the way have always been (and still are today) fierce fighters of there culture and people.

The Basques are interesting in that they seem to be genetic outliers in terms of recombinant DNA, but not so much in terms of the Y-Chromosomes and MtDNA. I suspect that may trun out to be a result of the failure of the current techniques to detect subtle differences in these non-recombinant portions of the human genome.

There are other scenarios as well.

Perhaps as more subclades of R1b are found a more clear picture can start to develop as far as IE R1b, Celtic R1b and Native Europe R1b.

Among the many things that I tend to question regarding the nature of prehistoric culture is the idea that individual populations were relatively isolated, and there were no extended socio-political structures. The archaeological evidence for North America suggests there were likely political structures spread over geographic regions comperable to a major river basin.

Recent archaeological evidence points too vast networks of roads fanning out like spokes of wheels from population centers in some parts of the world. The places where this evidence is visible through satellite images are fairly arid. It's likely similar patterns existed in places such as Europe where rainfall may have erased them.

Another important matter to bear in mind is that there is clear evidence showing regions that were once home to ancient civilization have turned to wasteland. The following are not offered as evidence for a particular R1b Urheimat. They are simply examples of how our current geographical concepts of what land is habitable may cause us to overlook the influence of anceint populations.

http://www.lngplants.com/Pumpelly.htm
...looking back through time would see the lakes gradually enlarging and coalescing until in some remote century they might appear as a large Inland Sea. Here seemed to me to exist a relation between the buried cities of the Tarim basin, the diminished pasturage and population of Mongolia, the vanished Han-hai (dried sea) of the Gobi, the shrinking of the lakes of the Aralo-Caspian undrained depressed area, and the overwhelming movements of barbarian hordes toward China and Europe.

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/oct25/articles20.htm
NEARLY ten thousand years ago when mighty rivers started flowing down the Himalayan slopes, western Rajasthan was green and fertile. Great civilizations prospered in the cool amiable climate on riverbanks of northwestern India. The abundant waters of the rivers and copious rains provided ample sustenance for their farming and other activities. Some six thousand years later, Saraswati, one of the rivers of great splendour in this region, for reasons long enigmatic, dwindled and dried up. Several other rivers shifted their courses, some of their tributaries were ‘pirated’ by neigbouring rivers or severed from their main courses. The greenery of Rajasthan was lost, replaced by an arid desert where hot winds piled up dunes of sand. The flourishing civilizations vanished one by one.

http://www.athenapub.com/9khotan1.htm
The ancient desert settlements of Khotan and neighboring Silk Road towns from Chinese East Turkestan to Turkmenistan were once bustling, cosmopolitan centers that flourished from the exchange of goods, languages, religion and ideas.

Bactria-Margina Archaeology Complex

The Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (or BMAC, also known as the Oxus civilization) the modern archaeological designation for a Bronze Age culture of Central Asia, dated to ca. 2200–1700 BC, located in present day Turkmenistan, northern Afghanistan, southern Uzbekistan and western Tajikistan, centered on the upper Amu Darya (Oxus). Its sites were discovered and named by Victor Sarianidi (1976). Bactria was the Greek name for the area of Bactra (modern Balkh), in what is now northern Afghanistan, and Margiana was the Greek name for the Persian satrapy of Margu, the capital of which was Merv, in today's Turkmenistan.

Photogallery: Tashkent Women


http://orexca.com/photo/50/6.jpg

4,000 years of the history
The ruins of the oasis-city of Merv in Turkmenistan lie on the millenary Silk Route in Central Asia and embody 4,000 years of the history of human settlement in this desert region.

From Garden of Asia to Desert of Hell

Today Kandaharis speak with pride of Seistan's ancient prosperity: "Once there were so many fine buildings and palaces that one could easily walk from Bost to Zaranj on the rooftops without once touching the ground." Medieval geographies speak of its remarkable prosperity, calling it the "garden of Asia" and the "granary of the East". And yet today its various parts are known by such names as Dasht-i-Margo (Desert of Death), Dasht-i-Jehanum (Desert of Hell), and Sar-o-Tar (Desolation and Empti-ness, in Baluchi). The Sar-o-Tar is covered with constantly moving sand dunes rising to a height of 20 m; 66 ft. Experts have con-cluded that these may be the fastest moving sand dunes anywhere in the world: an average dune of 6 m; 20 ft. moves at an annually adjusted rate of 15 cm; 6 in. a day.

Pyramids in Uzbekistan

A joint expedition of Russian and Uzbek archaeologists has discovered several ancient pyramids in Uzbekistan.

According to the scientists, these 15-metre-high constructions concealed for human eyes may be at least 2,700 years old. The ancient pyramids were discovered in a remote mountains area, in Kashkadaryin and Samarkand regions, in the south of the country, BBC reports.

[Hetware]

Please see this thread for followups on Indo-European specifice issues:

http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1269

[R1a_M17_India]

My understanding of how researchers typically determine the "older" populations when dealing with a widespread haplogroup is by assessing the diversity within a region. From what I've read, the European R1b seems relatively uniform in comparrison to that in India, Central Asia and Anatolia. I have to admit, the data seems to be comming out faster than I can assimilate it.

What is the current thinking on the origin and diversity of R1b? I believe it is found at relatively high frequencies in placeses such as Andrah Pradesh in India and Sri Lanka. Does the R1b diversity in Europe really attest to a 35,000 year old, relatively isolated genepool?

Can you point me to any paper which shows the distribution of R1b in India, especially Andhra Pradesh?
a) My initial guess would be that this is the Anglo-Indian community (British-Indian population formed by marriages during the British Empire). That community is very small though and statistically wont show up, unless you are talking of your matches in the FTDNA database
b) R1b is slightly more common in the North Western region though, could have come in from Central Asia with the Scythian or the White Hun invasions (Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, etc.). A community of Andhra Pradesh, called Kammas, migrated from the North Western region of Rajasthan to South India and would be interesting to see if they are the ones with R1b profile.

[Hetware]

Can you point me to any paper which shows the distribution of R1b in India, especially Andhra Pradesh?

No. For one, none of the authors call it R1b. I would have to cull several different souces and collect the evidence into a separate report of my own making.

a) My initial guess would be that this is the Anglo-Indian community (British-Indian population formed by marriages during the British Empire). That community is very small though and statistically wont show up, unless you are talking of your matches in the FTDNA database

One gourp I know of in India with a high R1b frequency are the Lambadis. I don't know much about them, however.

b) R1b is slightly more common in the North Western region though, could have come in from Central Asia with the Scythian or the White Hun invasions (Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, etc.). A community of Andhra Pradesh, called Kammas, migrated from the North Western region of Rajasthan to South India and would be interesting to see if they are the ones with R1b profile.

Unfortunately, I have formed my understanding by gleening bits and pieces from reports that focus on other matters, but provide fragmentary information about the topic at hand. It is thus difficult for me to construct a coherent prsentation of the information. In several cases I don't even recall where I saw the evidence because I didn't realize it was relevant at the time. For example, some authors will use circumscription to identify R1b. It took some careful study to understand how to interpret such forms of expression. The reports tend to generalize about a population of over a billion on the basis of a few hundred subjects, I believe it is a bit absurd to draw too many hard and fast conclusions from them.

[R1a_M17_India]

One gourp I know of in India with a high R1b frequency are the Lambadis. I don't know much about them, however.

Interesting. That is a nomadic / semi-urbanized tribe which originiated in North West India (Rajasthan) and has led a nomadic life and is now seen in Andhra Pradesh. They are the equivalent of the Romany of Europe, and given the Romany's supposedly Indian origins, both might well have started wandering out of Rajasthan at the same time but in different directions.

I read some article which listed Rajasthan as one probable origin for the Romanys, with the Muslim invasions as a probable cause for the displacement and start of the wanderings.

[Hetware]

Interesting. That is a nomadic / semi-urbanized tribe which originiated in North West India (Rajasthan) and has led a nomadic life and is now seen in Andhra Pradesh. They are the equivalent of the Romany of Europe, and given the Romany's supposedly Indian origins, both might well have started wandering out of Rajasthan at the same time but in different directions.

I read some article which listed Rajasthan as one probable origin for the Romanys, with the Muslim invasions as a probable cause for the displacement and start of the wanderings.

I do not believe the Lambani constitue the only significant contribution of R1b to the Indian population. I'm not saying it is extremely frequent. I'm just saying that I believe it is frequent enough to indicat more than some Redcoat wild oats. My speculation is that it may predate the appearance of R1a in India. But that is _very_ speculative.

Then again, we need to be careful as to what we mean by "India". The "traditional AIT" considers "India" to mostly be what is now Pakistan. There are some considerations which are often ignored by both sides of the "AIT" polemic. One significant issue is the idea that nomadic people are assumed to be pre-agricultural, and thus unsophisticated and primitive. As I have indicated elsewhere, there is substantial evidence that agrarian cultures have converted to nomadism due to climate shifts. There has been much unearthed in Central Asia attesting to advanced urban cultures contemporaneous with the Harappan civilization. It is not impossible (or even improbable) that these ancient cultures contributed to the Indo-Aryan cultural milieu.

[Vance Hawkins]

Please pardon my lack of expertise on this topic.

But why does the immigration have to flow from Pakistan to Turkey and the Balkins to Western Europe? Why couldn't thre be more diversity on the Indian sub-Continent because it has been invaded more often?

Perhaps there was an original expansion out of India, and later some of these people that left Indian for say, the region of the Caspian Sea. While there, they mixed with Europeans from further west who later pushed into Persia, Pakistan and returned to India?

Again, if lack of diversity implies a more recent migration, this might account for everything I just explained. That is, some originally left India long, long ago. A fairly recent group of people went to Europe, say, 12,000 years ago and wiped out the male line that proceeded it, and say 5,000 years ago some direct line male descendants of these folks returned to India from which their ancestors had originated?

Remember 12,000 years ago a very small population by todays standards, would be all that is required to have taken over Europe. In contrast, 5,000 years ago a small population could NOT have exterminated the male line of India because it was much more heavily populated.

vh

[Downer101]

'Tis a complicated matter. We should wait until we have more evidence. I know that Genographic is always updating it's maps, but the thing is that we don't know much about R1b after 27 000 ybp. Then again, we all must realize this is new and we should simmer until more evidence pours out.

[lgmayka]

'Tis a complicated matter. We should wait until we have more evidence. I know that Genographic is always updating it's maps, but the thing is that we don't know much about R1b after 27 000 ybp. Then again, we all must realize this is new and we should simmer until more evidence pours out.

You resurrected a thread from March. If nothing else, this shows that we've been flogging this topic for a long time.

[Downer101]

Well Hetware, I have to agree on this one. Yes, I also believe R1b is not a 35K old isolated genepool. There are some groups such as the Basque R1b and probably some in isolated pockets of R1b in Italy and the British Isles.

However, almost all European languages are of the Indo-European group and are related. I theorize that R1b in Iberia and across Europe including the British Isles could not have adopted nor have had forced cultural and linguistic assimilation during the Neolithic. People at the time of that which has been suggested were just too scarce. A invading group of tribes in waves would have all the males killed and possibly women and children, simple supply and demand as far as food sources because people in this time period were just too scarce.

The "Invasion forced assimilation" concepts came much later such as the Anglo Saxon forced assimilation of the Native Brythonic Celt.

In my theory I speculate that R1b "Celtic" replaced R1b "Native European" except for small pockets such as the Basque who by the way have always been (and still are today) fierce fighters of there culture and people.

Perhaps as more subclades of R1b are found a more clear picture can start to develop as far as IE R1b, Celtic R1b and Native Europe R1b.

I hate being R1b.. Nothing is ever clear.. Aghh!

[banrjeer]

Please pardon my lack of expertise on this topic.

But why does the immigration have to flow from Pakistan to Turkey and the Balkins to Western Europe? Why couldn't thre be more diversity on the Indian sub-Continent because it has been invaded more often?
vh

The earliest evidence for agriculture is in the levant, west asia, antolia. western india
These are the areas that would give rise to the major surviving non african lineages simply because they were able to support a large number of breeding adults.

Unlike in warmer climes, populations in europe would have to rely on relatively advanced technology just to survive the cold. The ice ages would have constrained the population to be small.

If you look at populations such as that of the kurds, anatolians they seem to have all extant european lineages.