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  • "Your Sample Needs Additional Testing" Disguised Blessing?

    Finally, after an exorbitantly long time, I receive a response this morning:

    "Your sample needs additional testing. In some cases, the standard testing procedures do not permit the accurate determination of a haplogroup, so we perform additional tests. This test is referred to as a SNP test. This is not uncommon, but will delay the posting of your results by two to three weeks. You do not need to take any action at this time.
    Please be aware that in some cases a simple SNP test may be inconclusive, which could result in additional delays of several weeks as we continue to test your sample.
    If we find that there is a problem at any point during the processing of your sample, you will receive an updated message when you log in to check your status."

    From my incomplete knowledge of genetics, this news would seem to be an entirely *positive* thing. Again, according to my limited competence, STR testing seems to based on accurate but sometimes imperfect statistical analysis, whereas SNP testing is more definitive and rigorous. Correct? Therefore, the possibility of error in the labelling of my haplogroup is now significantly reduced. Correct? Thus, I have a reason to be appreciative of the situation, as I needn't have lingering doubts as to possible erroneousness of results, no?
    Hrodberht
    Registered User
    Last edited by Hrodberht; 5 January 2006, 09:50 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hrodberht
    Finally, after an exorbitantly long time, I receive a response this morning:

    "Your sample needs additional testing. In some cases, the standard testing procedures do not permit the accurate determination of a haplogroup, so we perform additional tests. This test is referred to as a SNP test. This is not uncommon, but will delay the posting of your results by two to three weeks. You do not need to take any action at this time.
    Please be aware that in some cases a simple SNP test may be inconclusive, which could result in additional delays of several weeks as we continue to test your sample.
    If we find that there is a problem at any point during the processing of your sample, you will receive an updated message when you log in to check your status."

    From my incomplete knowledge of genetics, this news would seem to be an entirely *positive* thing. Again, according to my limited competence, STR testing seems to based on accurate but sometimes imperfect statistical analysis, whereas SNP testing is more definitive and rigorous. Correct? Therefore, the possibility of error in the labelling of my haplogroup is now significantly reduced. Correct? Thus, I have a reason to be appreciative of the situation, as I needn't have lingering doubts as to possible erroneousness of results, no?
    Correct. The possibility of error in the labelling of your haplogroup is not only significantly but totally reduced. The presence of specific SNPs is what really identifies your haplogroup. There is hardly any ambiguity in the results. The only thing you need now is a good dose of patience.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Victor
      Correct. The possibility of error in the labelling of your haplogroup is not only significantly but totally reduced. The presence of specific SNPs is what really identifies your haplogroup. There is hardly any ambiguity in the results. The only thing you need now is a good dose of patience.
      Victor,
      If I choose a 25 marker (upgrading from 12 marker), would that cover a SNP test that tells me about my deep subclades? If it doesn't, is it because the techniques or different or just that FTDNA is packaging these incrementally to milk the customer?
      I am interested in knowing about my deep ancestry and origins. Would you recommend a 25 marker upgrade or a deep subclades test?
      TIA!

      Comment


      • #4
        It is not that STR tests are imperfect, but that they look at a physically different area than SNP tests. Haplogroup membership is defined by SNP results. STR results are correlated with SNP results but not perfectly. With some probability the STR results can be used to guess at SNP results. However in some cases STR results are too ambiguous to point to a specific SNP haplogroup. Increasing the number of STR markers is not the same as a SNP test.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Rudra
          Victor,
          If I choose a 25 marker (upgrading from 12 marker), would that cover a SNP test that tells me about my deep subclades? If it doesn't, is it because the techniques or different or just that FTDNA is packaging these incrementally to milk the customer?
          I am interested in knowing about my deep ancestry and origins. Would you recommend a 25 marker upgrade or a deep subclades test?
          TIA!
          Rudra,

          STR tests like the one you took, for either 12, 25 or any other number of markers, are best suited to determine if you have a genetic affinity (on your paternal lineage) to other persons in a genealogical timeframe, that is, within the last few centuries.

          SNP tests on the other hand, as you correctly state it in your message, unequivocally determine your haplogroup and what some call the deep genetic ancestry that goes back thousands of years.

          Like Josh explained, STR results can be used in most cases to guess or predict what your haplogroup is. I'm assuming that your haplotype may be one of those few cases where there isn't a clear cut definition about your haplogroup or that you're not totally convinced for one reason or another with the prediction you've been given.

          Recommending or not to take a deep SNP subclade test depends on what is your presumed haplogroup based on your initial test, because the level of detail or definition varies from one haplogroup to another and you have to understand what you can realistically expect to learn from the available tests.

          If you care to elaborate a little more on the results you currently have maybe we can make additional comments.

          Victor

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you, Victor and josh, for explaining things more fully.

            Comment


            • #7
              Wow! Interestingly, I belong to Haplogroup G, a mysterious and enigmatic haplogroup. I wonder what Hg G indicates in a person of paternal Norman-Sicilian heritage? It is stated little is known about G, so perhaps my sample can help build up the knowledge pool. I think I remember G being indicative of Iranian-Sarmation-Alanian affinities in some contexts.

              I have a lot of research to do!

              Comment


              • #8
                Haplogroup G in Sicily

                Originally posted by Hrodberht
                Wow! Interestingly, I belong to Haplogroup G, a mysterious and enigmatic haplogroup. I wonder what Hg G indicates in a person of paternal Norman-Sicilian heritage? It is stated little is known about G, so perhaps my sample can help build up the knowledge pool. I think I remember G being indicative of Iranian-Sarmation-Alanian affinities in some contexts.

                I have a lot of research to do!
                If you go to the Sicily Project website (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily/), look at the results for #17 and #18 on the list of our members' results - #18 was predicted as a G haplotype by Family Tree DNA and #17 was unpredicted, but Whit Athey's haplogroup predictor gives it a strong prediction as G. These are 2 out of our 19 results for paternal lines from Sicily, quite a high percentage for the G haplogroup. So you are not alone. The member whose results are #18 has ordered the deep clade SNP test for G from Family Tree DNA.

                There is a project administrator here named Ray Banks who has a lot of interest in the G haplogroup and has written me e-mails asking to know of any Sicilian paternal lines that are G. He has described to me how the Sarmatians, who have some relationship to G, might have come to Sicily. Take a look at some webpages he has on this:
                http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/G2Ideas and http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/MoreG2

                Mike

                Comment


                • #9
                  http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....il/haplo_g.htm

                  "A recent paper by I. Nasidze et al, entitled "Genetic Evidence Concerning The Origins of North and South Ossetians", has identified of levels of G in Northern Ossetia ranging from 21 to 75 percent, depending on the region. Since the Ossetians are considered to be the descendants of the Alans, the G haplogroup may be construed as a possible marker of Alanic or Sarmatian ancestry when it is found among Border Reiver descendants"
                  ...
                  "This is very possibly an Indo-Iranian signature that spread across Europe with The Great Migrations of the Goths and their allies. It may have came to Britain with Normans of Alanic descent, or with the Sarmatians who served along Hadrian's Wall."

                  This would seem to be on target: although I understand phenotype is not absolutely significant and correlative, I have unambiguously 'Nordo-Germanic' features: icey blue eyes, high-standing aquiline nose, fine brown hair, etc. Vandal Alans and other groups with Indo-Iranian affinities have been historical invaders, settlers, and aristocrats of Sicily.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you, Mike. I'll look into all that soon and contact Ray Banks, I'm off to college at the moment.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      According to the Border Reiver's site and the gratefully indicated Ray Banks, Hg G could be evidence of possible Sarmatian-Alanic lineage.

                      I have looked more into this absolutely captivating topic of the resettled Sarmatians and Alans. Historians and scholars think these Irano-Aryans seemingly brought heavy cavalry, the chivalric-knightly ethos, the King Arthur-Holy Grail mythos, and Iranian dualism in the form of the Cathar heresy into the West. I am totally intrigued by any indirect relation I might have to these world-historical people. Curiously enough, I have been since childhood irresistably drawn to the Holy Grail mythos and the Western dualistic religion tradition of Iranian-Aryan origins in the West (Marcion, the Paulicians, the Bogomils and Cathars, etc.). In my family's case there are also obscure connexions to the lesser European aristocracy.

                      http://www.hungarianquarterly.com/no144/p113.html

                      "Under the Emperor Marcus Aurelius (161-180) the Roman Army campaigned for eight years in Pannonia Barbarica (i.e., in the central and northern parts of the Carpathian Basin, north and east of the Roman limes along the Danube) against the Quadi, a German tribe, and Sarmatians and Alans, Iranian speaking barbarians who came from east of the Carpathians, from the south Russian steppe and from the Lower Danube Plains near the Black Sea. After hard but victorious battles, 5,500 Sarmatian/Alanian heavy cavalry (called cataphractarii, i.e. clothed fully in scale armour) consisting of prisoners taken in war were posted to Britain in 175. Marcus Aurelius sent these warriors to Britannia not only to keep them out of trouble in Pannonia Barbarica but also to deploy them beyond Hadrian's Wall.2 These Sarmatians are known to have been stationed in permanent camps outside the Roman forts at Ribchester in Lancashire, Chester, and elsewhere. The Sarmatian enclaves - especially the one at Ribchester, a Lancashire site known in ancient times as Bremetennacum veteranorum - survived until the end of the Roman era in the late 4th century A.D.

                      The tombstone fragments of a Sarmatian/Alanian standard bearer were found at Chester (Deva) in 1890. This is unique evidence of the presence of heavily armoured Sarmatian cavalry from the earliest third century A.D. The two fragments of the tombstone (now in the Grosvenor Museum in Chester) show a horseman wearing a cloak and turning to the right. He holds aloft, with both hands, a dragon standard of the Sarmatian/Alanian type, and his conical helmet, with a vertical metal frame, is of the same pattern. A sword hangs at his right. Both man and horse are shown clad in tightly fitting scale armour. This attire for man and mount was characteristic of Sarmatian/Alanian heavy cavalry.
                      ...

                      The closed society of Sarmatian cataphractarii in Britain was able to maintain its ethnic features during the Late Roman period and afterwards. One reason is that their troops, called cuneus Sarmatorum, equitum Sarmatorum Bremetennacensium Gordianorum were not part of any military organization in active service. Consequently, after the withdrawal of the Roman army, they continued to live on their accustomed sites (Chester, Ribchester, etc.). They were still called Sarmatians after 250 years. A semihistoric Arthur lived about A.D. 500. He was very probably a descendant of those Alan horsemen, a battle leader of the Romanized Celts and Britons against the Anglo-Saxons, who invaded Britain after the Roman army had withdrawn. Arthur and his military leaders could therefore manage to train the natives as armoured horseman after Iranian patterns against the attacks of Angles and Saxons fighting on feet until their victory at Badon Hill."......

                      http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/1997-3/GRAIL.htm

                      "In our 1966 Journals of Hungarian Studies we studied the Sarmatian presence in England and their influence upon the arts, fashion, mythology of the Islands along with the establishment of horse breeding and cavalry. ...

                      In the January and February 1997 edition of the Archeological Journal Scott C. Littleton who is professor of anthropology at Occidental College in Los Angeles has written an article entitled Were Sarmatians the source of Arthurian legend? He also makes mention that in 175 AD Marcus Aurelius dispatched 5,500 Iazygs from the Danube region. There is also evidence of Sarmatians in the region. In Professor Littleton’s opinion it is from their culture that the Arthur legend originated along with the legend of the Holy Grail.

                      The writer of the article mentions that the first commander of the Sarmatians was Lucius Artorius Castus. According to the inscription on a stelae he led his troops to Gaul in 184 to quench a rebellion. Like the legendary King Arthur, he too led a cavalry into the European arena. “The first Sarmatian leader of the Ribchester contingent probably took on the title artorius, borrowing his commander’s name. A subsequent leader may have been King Arthur, the “Artorius, dux bellorum (war leader)...” writes professor Littleton. King Arthur saved Britain by defeating the Saxons at Badon hill in 510 AD. We did discuss the further implications of this title in our previous Journal. We also discussed the Sarmatian Yazyg affiliations at the same time.

                      Professor Littleton discusses a relationship between the Sarmatians, Scythians and the Alans. The entire legend of King Arthur and his court, the Round Table, the Holy Grail may all have had Sarmatian origins. He identifies Sir Lancelot with a leading personality of the Alans. The legends of the Holy Grail later became embellished with Christian myths that never really found favor in the eyes of the Church. The first written document of the Round Table came from the works of Wace of Jersey entitled Roman de Brut, dated 1155 AD (3, Vol.10:208)."....

                      http://www.smu.edu/arthuriana/teachi...ia_malcor.html

                      "Evidence suggests that the tales of Arthur, Lancelot and other Knights were brought into Europe by various groups of invading Sarmatians and Alans. People sensed that the stories somehow belonged together, so they combined them. Variations reflect each invading group's history and traditions. ...

                      The Lancelot and Grail material seem to be derived from the same source as the sagas of the Narts, and the agent of transmission was most likely the Alans of Gaul."

                      http://groups.msn.com/AncientWisdomN...holygrail.msnw

                      Wolfram claimed in his 'Parzival' (ca. 1200-1210;16.827.1-2) that Chretien de Troyes had failed to present the 'true' story of the Holy Grail. While Wolfram's narrative differs in many details from Chretiens, the differences between these and other continental Grail narratives can be accounted for through the effect of historical events upon a single tradition that was shared by the Alans. Wolfram drew heavily on sources from southern Gaul for his Grail material. In addition to place descriptions and personal names, it is quite likely that he took his patterns for his story from the south as well. In 'Parzival' the Grail is described as a rock on which the names of the guardians, who are called "Templars", appear. The Knights Templar, who supplied the name for these guardians, are the traditional heirs of the treasure of the Temple of Solomon following the demise of the Cathar heresy. Some of the Templars were associated with the Alan families of southern Gaul, just as the Cathars were. It is likely that Wolfram's source was a variant of an Alanic story preserved by these descendants of southern Gaul.

                      Markale sees strong parallels between Wolfram's 'Parzival' and the Iranian "Conte de la Perle", which is Manichaean in character. He believes that this similarity is lacking in other Grail legends, and he proposes that Wolfram made a conscious substitution of the stone for the vessel with blood or for Chretiens "deep dish". Wolfram's Grail has been repeatedly described as "Germano-Iranian", and attempts to explain this connection have ranged from influence through the Cathars in the south of France to oriental tales brought back to Europe by Crusaders. Friedrich von Suhtschek "maintained the Arthurian cycle to be of Iranian origin and Wolfram's 'Parzival' and Gawain romance a free translation from the Persian", and Closs argued that instead of a direct translation, the story of the Grail had been supplied by "a long forgotten source" of Persian origin. Closs also maintained that the Grail had its origin on the "borders of Persia and Afganistan", citing in partial support the connection between Wolfram and Manichaean beliefs. Closs credited Arabs and Crusaders with the transmission of the legends, with the Albigensians providing fertile ground for such legends to take root. Markale felt the Wolfram's 'Parzival', which claims the mysterious Kyot as its source, is the only Grail romance that exhibits Cathar-like thought. Waite went farther with this notion, claiming that this reference to Kyot is the only literary remnant of the Grail tradition of southern France. Wolfram does not use the prologue, which links 'Parzival's family to the Orient on the father's side, but he does link the line of Gahmuret, which is from the East, to the House of Anjou.

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