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  • #16
    Sengupta et al. study and L1

    I think Sengupta et al. study gives varying percentages for North and South India when it comes to L1. The point we should keep in mind while calculating total percentage of India is giving due weightage to various castes. The upper castes constitute 10-15% of total population, lower around 15-20% and middle around 65-75%. Middle castes percentage might give a better picture. Also, linguistically Indo-Europeans(North Indians) constitute around 70% of the population and linguistically Dravidians(South Indians) may be around 25%. Therefore, L1 is around 18% of South Indian population(without Andhra Pradesh) and 6% of North Indian population. Overall, percentage might be around 9-10% in India. However, L1 distribution is generally found West to South India. However, a comprhensive study of all the population along this route (Rajasthan, Gujarat, Karnataka, Kerala) would hardly change anything. The population considered for North and East are from the states of Uttara Pradesh and West Bengal show no L1. Also, a previous study in Andhra Pradesh, a South Indian state in Eastern part of India show no traces of L1. Population of these states along with Bihar(Eastern state) make the bulk of Indian population. Looks like L1 took West-South coastal route to India from Southern Central Asia(I suppose almost all Indian lineages could be traced to this region, now part of Afghanistan and Pakistan) or North West of the subcontinent.

    I suppose, only L1 is found in India, L1 and L3 in Pakistan and L2 is mostly observed in the non-subcontinent population(Turks). Few L3 in India and L2 in Pakistan are oberved but not in appreciable amount and limited to one or two groups.

    Comment


    • #17
      My Haplotypes

      Noaide,

      Thank you for the advise. I will reproduce the STR numbers in my result so that you can help me understand how to interpret them according to the table referred by you.

      STRs
      393 19 391 439 389-1 389-2 388 390 426 385a 385b 392
      12 15 10 13 13 16 12 22 11 9 16 14

      In your table I do not see 'Punjabi' as an Ethnic group??

      Regards,

      Wazirzada

      Comment


      • #18
        Haplotypes Comparison

        Cacio,

        Five of my STR's exactly match yours. What does this exactly signify? How far back would we have a common ancestor?

        Wazirzada

        Comment


        • #19
          A match of only 5 out of 12 means no recent common ancestor
          (not just that - but for some markers we have a difference of
          more than 1). So presumably our common ancestor on the
          male line was somewhere close to the first L person 30,000 or
          more years ago.

          I looked on ysearch and noticed that you have loaded your results.
          Actually, I don't know if you noticed, but there are 2 (!) wazirzada.
          One from Kandahar (SHEPR) whom I take is you, and another
          one from Pakistan (9U848). I don't know if that is also you (eg
          you've entered your results before) - however, there is
          a difference of one STR in 385b (in your post above there is 16
          while 9U848 has 17), so he may not be you.
          Anyway, you match this person in all but one, and this does mean
          that there is a high likelihood of a common male ancestor within -
          say- the last 400-500 years.

          Anyway, apart from this other Wazirdada, you do not seem to have
          any close match in ysearch
          (the third closest match has a distance of 4, which is already high).
          Unfortunately, there are only 20 or so people from group
          L in ysearch, so the sample is too small to say anything.

          Comment


          • #20
            Regarding the post by Paleo_indian, the hypothesis about
            L2 as a potential marker for non-subcontinent populations is
            quite interesting. Is it just a hypothesis, or did you
            read that somewhere?

            The only thing somewhat related I know of is found in
            Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia by Cinnioglu
            http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...4_p127-148.pdf
            which states that the turkish sample he looks at seems to miss the
            mutation defining L1. However, nothing is said about L2 vs L3
            (or versus some other as yet not discovered Ls).

            Comment


            • #21
              BSK = 3 hits
              BAL = 1 hit
              PKH =1 hit
              SDH = 1 hit


              Originally posted by Wazirzada
              Noaide,

              Thank you for the advise. I will reproduce the STR numbers in my result so that you can help me understand how to interpret them according to the table referred by you.

              STRs
              393 19 391 439 389-1 389-2 388 390 426 385a 385b 392
              12 15 10 13 13 16 12 22 11 9 16 14

              In your table I do not see 'Punjabi' as an Ethnic group??

              Regards,

              Wazirzada
              Last edited by Noaide; 13 January 2006, 08:42 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                BSK = Burusho - Karakorum Mountains: Hunza, Nagar, and Yasin (Alex army)
                BAL = Baluch - Baluchistan
                PKH = Pathan - NWFP and Baluchistan
                SDH = Sindhi - Sindh

                I compared with the Pakistan haplotype sample.

                Originally posted by Noaide
                BSK = 3 hits
                BAL = 1 hit
                PKH =1 hit
                SDH = 1 hit

                Comment


                • #23
                  Noaide,

                  Thank you for your analysis.

                  What does the few matches with the existing Pakistani DYS types convey to you.

                  Does this mean I should look for higher frequency of matches in some other populations?

                  Regards,

                  Qudus

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Cacio,

                    I will resolve your query. I am SHEPR and I and 9U848 do have a common ancestor...he is my brother. I have mentioned Afghanistan Kandahar as this is the last known origin of my ancestor.

                    Is it normal to have a difference of 1 with your brother?

                    How close is a distance of four (a difference of 1 in 4 of the 12 DYS) in terms of a common ancestor?

                    Regards,

                    Qudus

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      You say your fathers line come from Afghanistan. Nothing can be said for sure when comparing a Afghan to Pakistan sample. It would be best to compare to data from Afghanistan or specific to your father line trible but these is as far as I know not available, but there is some people in some tribes related to your fathers line living in Pakistan is related. I do not know anything about Pakistan or Afighanistan peoples. Is any of these peoples related to the people you belong too?

                      Originally posted by Wazirzada
                      Noaide,

                      Thank you for your analysis.

                      What does the few matches with the existing Pakistani DYS types convey to you.

                      Does this mean I should look for higher frequency of matches in some other populations?

                      Regards,

                      Qudus

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Dear Cacio,

                        Originally posted by Wazirzada

                        I will resolve your query. I am SHEPR and I and 9U848 do have a common ancestor...he is my brother. I have mentioned Afghanistan Kandahar as this is the last known origin of my ancestor.

                        Is it normal to have a difference of 1 with your brother?
                        Yes, it is normal. These STR markers are studied exactly because
                        they mutate quite often (as opposed to the SNP used to define
                        deep lineages as haplogroup L, which mutate only in thousands of years.)
                        385 seems to mutate particularly frequently.
                        And of course, tests make mistakes all the time, so it may also
                        be the case that one test simply miscalculated that one STR.

                        Originally posted by Wazirzada
                        How close is a distance of four (a difference of 1 in 4 of the 12 DYS) in terms of a common ancestor?
                        Not very close, ie, unlikely to have a common ancestor
                        within a few hundred years.
                        I don't have the data for 4 differences, but this
                        website gives probabilities for 2 mismatches, and they
                        are already high.
                        http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/ftdna/TMRCA.html

                        Given Noaide's data on Pakistan and the presence of several matches,
                        it seems that some of your male ancestors were quite successful.
                        Gengis Khan had millions of descendants, but it looks like the
                        first Popalzai/Sadozai/Wazirzada did well too.

                        cacio

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Noaide,

                          My ancestors camp to Pakistan (at that time it was know as British India)in the 19th Century, which is recent in relative terms.

                          A lot of the Popalzai/Durrani tribe remained in Afghanistan. Therefore, we should be able to find matches on both sides of the border.

                          Are the matches that you have posted in your mail 100% matches?


                          Regards,

                          Qudus

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            You and they have different markers. Of all the common markers your hits is 100%. As I remember there was 9 common markers.

                            Originally posted by Wazirzada
                            Noaide,

                            Are the matches that you have posted in your mail 100% matches?


                            Regards,

                            Qudus

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Cacio,

                              I will take that as a complement. Any comparison with Chengis Khan is envyable.

                              Unfortunately, the TMRC calculations do not provide the desired confidence levels.

                              I remember in the literature available on this site I read that between fater and son; there could be a difference of 2 in the markers. At the same time a difference of 2 is intrepreted as a difference of at least 30 generations

                              Regards,

                              Qudus

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Wazirzada
                                Cacio,
                                Unfortunately, the TMRC calculations do not provide the desired confidence levels.
                                Per se, this is true. However, these matches were found in NW Pakistan,
                                an area that was occupied by the Pashtun. Your clan- I gather - is
                                one of the most prominent Pashtun clans. So the likelihood of a
                                prolific founder is high. I bet in the ancestral land of the clan
                                (Kandahar?) matches will be much more frequent.
                                The former king and President Karzai are Popalzai too, aren't they?
                                May be they too belong to haplogroup L.

                                Originally posted by Wazirzada
                                I remember in the literature available on this site I read that between fater and son; there could be a difference of 2 in the markers. At the same time a difference of 2 is intrepreted as a difference of at least 30 generations
                                Mutations are random events, like tossing a dice. The chance, say,
                                of getting a 6 in one toss is 1/6, the chance of getting two 6's in two
                                tosses is 1/36, and so on. The probabilities become low, but the event
                                can happen.
                                If one doesn't have any other information, one would give low probability
                                to these events, and interpret a difference in two markers as a recent, but not too recent common ancestry. But it does happen sometimes that there's
                                a difference of two between father and son or between brothers.
                                (And viceversa that there is no difference between people whose common male ancestor was much more than 100 generations ago.)

                                I don't know exactly how paternity tests work, but I understand that in fact,
                                in order to have the desired confidence,
                                they check for very many markers in various chromosomes (not just 12
                                points in the Y chromosome). If there is a difference of only 1 or 2 out
                                of very many markers, then the relationship is established. But if by adding markers one sees that the number of differences goes up, then it's a sign of no recent relationship.

                                Comment

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