I do not know if this had been mentioned on here yet but I remember reading that the Kola Saami had haplogroup J2e at around 14%. I did not really expect to see that much J2 up there. I found it interesting anyways.
Y-DNA: J2a*
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The Genetic origin of the Saami people of Scandinavia
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The Saami have always said they're native to Europe, and I believe this is relatively true. They spoke a different language than that of the Finno-Ugric category. The N3 haplogroup is native to North Siberia, and is not European in origin in anyway. U is a Franco-Cantiberian marker, very much similar to the ht15 marker that was Aurignacian. The late R1b1c and I1a of northern Germany and Scandinavia practiced reindeer herding (Bromme culture 12200 BCE - 9570BCE, etc.) long before the arrival of the N haplogroup, in the late Upper Paleolithic period. I would say that the reindeer herding culture of the Saami is Native European, but they have been heavily influenced by the late Central Siberian Finno-Ugric cultures.It appears this way to me. Either that, or the fact that Northern Eurasia in general was full of similar reindeer cultures during the Late Upper Paleolithic.
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Originally posted by cavyloverI recently had my mtDNA tested and the results were in Haplogroup V which is very high among the Saami. However my matrilineal line is of Scotch-Irish origin and they have been living in this country since British colonial times. Could Saami women have come with the Norwegian Vikings when they settled the outer islands of Scotland? Because when I read about the Saami it clicked with my mother's family. And many of their physical features seem to match my matrilineal side. I know that on the Genographic website they have a picture of a woman and a child in Denmark for Haplogroup V and my mother exclaimed that the child looked just like me when I was a toddler. If anyone could answer my question about Saami women and the Norwegian Vikings I would very much like it. Thank you.
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Guest repliedI recently had my mtDNA tested and the results were in Haplogroup V which is very high among the Saami. However my matrilineal line is of Scotch-Irish origin and they have been living in this country since British colonial times. Could Saami women have come with the Norwegian Vikings when they settled the outer islands of Scotland? Because when I read about the Saami it clicked with my mother's family. And many of their physical features seem to match my matrilineal side. I know that on the Genographic website they have a picture of a woman and a child in Denmark for Haplogroup V and my mother exclaimed that the child looked just like me when I was a toddler. If anyone could answer my question about Saami women and the Norwegian Vikings I would very much like it. Thank you.
Originally posted by Noaidehttp://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/se...ns/origin3.htm
"The traditions surrounding the "Norway Finns" - as they became known in Orcadian tradition - travelled with the Norsemen into Orkney and Shetland, where, until recent times, the term 'Finn' was still used to describe wise-women, healers, or 'witches'."
So this may explain some of the occurence of haplogroup N in Britain. The Saamis were skilled bowmen and also had magic powers both useful for the norsemen raiding parties. Also in historic times the Norwegians bought "good weather" from Saami shamans when traveling on the ocean. It seems in Britain there were known as "Finfolks".
Later on in history the Germans accused Sweden for using Saami magic during the battles in the 30 year war, of course those battles the Germans lost.
"One of the oldest accounts relating to the Saami culture was written in Sweden after the 30 Years War. During this conflict, we learn, that the Swedes were accused of using Saami witchcraft."
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Originally posted by RossiPlease note the surprisingly high E3b (M96) percentage for the Saami (graphs and tables). It is very odd because this is a pocket of otherwise reduced incidence from South to North Europe.
I may add hg F is another strange one among the Saami, it has been observed 5.7% among the Swedish Saami. This is not seen among the other Saami groups either including the Kola Saami. It also belong to an African/Arab group.
Source: Tambets 2004
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YAP and Saami
Once I received my results back from FTDNA and it was determined that I was M35+ (E3b) I went to the YSTR database and found to my surprise considerable (a majority) minimal haplotype matches in the Baltic area, from Estonia and Latvia to North/Central Sweden. What is interesting is that I had previously researched the origin of my last name and it pointed to Ancient Rus (some Swedish Vikings), the Normans and the Russians and so all of a sudden I had some interesting similarities. I searched for further information for quite some time and today I stumbled upon this study:
The Eurasian Heatland....
Please note the surprisingly high E3b (M96) percentage for the Saami (graphs and tables). It is very odd because this is a pocket of otherwise reduced incidence from South to North Europe.
I think there are some answers for me there. E3b supposedly originated in East Africa and is prevalent in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe. It is an old haplogroup.
Curiouser and curiouser.
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Originally posted by MrHappyIt's mostly because the percentage of I1b drops that far north.
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Originally posted by vraatyahIn the Russian North, the ratio becomes reversed.
Even in north Russia I1c and I1a do not reach the levels of Germanic countries.
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Originally posted by MrHappyThe I in Slavs is also more frequently I1b, rather than the Germanic I1a and I1c.
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Originally posted by Noaidewhat geographic areas of the Russian republic that is defined as "north-russia
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Slavs differ from Germanic groups in their high incidence of R1a1 and lower incidence of R1b.
The I in Slavs is also more frequently I1b, rather than the Germanic I1a and I1c.
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Ok, I admitt it may be a incorrect term to use, maybe "Boermas" is a more correct word to use to represent these peoples living in these areas east of todays Finland. Again please tell me what geographic areas of the Russian republic that is defined as "north-russia", have tried to find out but cant find any good reference, so my second best guess was "Pomors" as defined by as Murmansk and Arkangelsk areas.
My reference is Tambets 2004:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1181943
Look at Table 3: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=table&id=TB3
Russians and "north-russians" have different frequency of R1b. As far as I know most Slavs have both R1a, R1b and I.
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Originally posted by NoaideThe "north-russians" is not etnically Slavs, they are Pomors.
Originally posted by NoaideSlavs have like the germanic somewhat equal distribution of R1a, R1b and ILast edited by vraatyah; 26 February 2006, 11:52 AM.
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Ohthere's First Voyage
I have earlier seen refences to Ohthere or also known as Ottar and his describition of his journey from Norway to the White Sea in todays Russia. There seem to be many interpretations of this story some of these is obviously wrong because of crap translation by english authours that did not understand that word "finn" is not the modern finnlander (Suomi) but actually the Saami people, these crap translations have put forward a number of never die wandering stories about "qwens" and "finns" that Finnish nationalist and Stormfront.org people just love to read about.
I have the old original english text at this link together with a modern english translation. Notice how the translater translate both "qwen" and "finn" to "finn", this is wrong.
http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/worldcall_200...ragraph-1.html
Ottar himself lived close to the Saami (Finns) in his farm by the coast somewhere in Nordland county in North-Norway. He even had 600 tame raindeers. He claim that he is the fartest living norseman in this area.
On his journey northwards he only see Saami (Finnas) all the way past North Cape and all the way to the White Sea in Russia. He also observe the Ter Finns (Ter Saami's who today is about to become exctinct culturally).
When he finally come to the "Beormas" people he observe something interesting, I quote:
"Ðā Finnas, him ðūhte, ond ðā Beormas sprǣcon nēah ān geðēode."
"seemed to him (that) the Finns and the Permians spoke nearly one (i.e. the same) language."
He actually say that the Finns (meaning the Saami) he knows very well for him seem to be speaking the same language. He use the word "Finn" (=Saami) and not the "Qwen" meaning todays modern Finnlanders from Finland.
This confirms in a way the Y-DNA tests I refered to earlier of the Pomors whos haplogroup distributions looked similar to the Swedish Saami and the Kola Saami, but not to the Russians. In 890 AD the Pomors were uralic speakers and they spoke a language very similar to the Saami. I am sure that Ottar must have known the Qwen language from various hostile Qwen raiding parties that occationally attacked the Norsemen. It did not occur to him that the Beormas spoke a language similar to the Qwens.
Ottar also confirm that the Saami lived in the mountains in South-Norway and lived at the coast in todays North Norway and the coast of the Kola Penninsula in Russia.
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SNP test
Noaide and Svein,
I have had the SNP test done by EthnoAncestry and it came back rather quickly.
The N3a from EA confirmed my earlier N3a from Trace Genetics and the N that FTDNA assigned *and* SNP tested me for (LLY22g)
EA reached the same conclusions as the "older" testing methods through the use of what they referred to as "phylogenetically equivalent" SNP tests in the Marlingen multiplex marker set.
Personally, I have full confidence in all of the labs. They do seem to bobble the ball every now and then but self correct most errors (and we would never know).
Svein, I would use EA right now for SNP testing. FTDNA is coming on line and probably a few of the others..but my own experience is with EA and has been totally positive.
ChrisS
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