The Genetic origin of the Saami people of Scandinavia

[Noaide]

Svein,

Here is a overview page of different suppliers.

http://www.isogg.org/ydnachart.htm

Some of them have detailed N subclade tests.

I need to do a SNP test, but where?

Has anyone used the Ethnoancestry service for SNP testing and how do they compare with the FTDNA tests?

[Noaide]

Svein,

I did refer to this as an example about N3a in both Saami and Finns, but I do not agree about "recent", this must be based on old info. I do not know where they have it from as I believe N3a have been in Scandinavia for quite some time, also in South Norway. Finnic migration to South-Eastern Norway in the 1600 century and later is also a fact in addition to very old lines of N3a among the South Saami, that in 900th century lived as far south as in Hadeland, just a few miles away from Oslo. I did also earlier give reference to the south-saami presence among the Norsemenn during and after the Viking age.

Noaide's reference to the http://www.ethnoancestry.com/MultiPanels.html page confirms my doubt stating that the Norwegians should not be in N3, unless by recent migration. As I know my direct paternal line back at least 450 years I think that exclude “recent” migration.

[ChrisS]

SNP test

Noaide and Svein,
I have had the SNP test done by EthnoAncestry and it came back rather quickly.
The N3a from EA confirmed my earlier N3a from Trace Genetics and the N that FTDNA assigned *and* SNP tested me for (LLY22g)
EA reached the same conclusions as the "older" testing methods through the use of what they referred to as "phylogenetically equivalent" SNP tests in the Marlingen multiplex marker set.
Personally, I have full confidence in all of the labs. They do seem to bobble the ball every now and then but self correct most errors (and we would never know).
Svein, I would use EA right now for SNP testing. FTDNA is coming on line and probably a few of the others..but my own experience is with EA and has been totally positive.
ChrisS

[Noaide]

Ohthere's First Voyage

I have earlier seen refences to Ohthere or also known as Ottar and his describition of his journey from Norway to the White Sea in todays Russia. There seem to be many interpretations of this story some of these is obviously wrong because of crap translation by english authours that did not understand that word "finn" is not the modern finnlander (Suomi) but actually the Saami people, these crap translations have put forward a number of never die wandering stories about "qwens" and "finns" that Finnish nationalist and Stormfront.org people just love to read about.

I have the old original english text at this link together with a modern english translation. Notice how the translater translate both "qwen" and "finn" to "finn", this is wrong.

http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/worldcall_2003/oldenglish/OEparagraph-1.html

Ottar himself lived close to the Saami (Finns) in his farm by the coast somewhere in Nordland county in North-Norway. He even had 600 tame raindeers. He claim that he is the fartest living norseman in this area.

On his journey northwards he only see Saami (Finnas) all the way past North Cape and all the way to the White Sea in Russia. He also observe the Ter Finns (Ter Saami's who today is about to become exctinct culturally).

When he finally come to the "Beormas" people he observe something interesting, I quote:

"Ðā Finnas, him ðūhte, ond ðā Beormas sprǣcon nēah ān geðēode."

"seemed to him (that) the Finns and the Permians spoke nearly one (i.e. the same) language."

He actually say that the Finns (meaning the Saami) he knows very well for him seem to be speaking the same language. He use the word "Finn" (=Saami) and not the "Qwen" meaning todays modern Finnlanders from Finland.

This confirms in a way the Y-DNA tests I refered to earlier of the Pomors whos haplogroup distributions looked similar to the Swedish Saami and the Kola Saami, but not to the Russians. In 890 AD the Pomors were uralic speakers and they spoke a language very similar to the Saami. I am sure that Ottar must have known the Qwen language from various hostile Qwen raiding parties that occationally attacked the Norsemen. It did not occur to him that the Beormas spoke a language similar to the Qwens.

Ottar also confirm that the Saami lived in the mountains in South-Norway and lived at the coast in todays North Norway and the coast of the Kola Penninsula in Russia.

[vraatyah]

The "north-russians" is not etnically Slavs, they are Pomors.

Gosh! Since when all the Northern Russians are Pomors????? Pomors are only few small groups near Arkhangelsk and Pinega that are more likely to descend from the Novgorod settlers. Now they are quite isolated and differ from most other Russian groups. I'm more inclined to say that people who descend from the "lowland" colonists have more in common with Finns than with other Russians, but they are not Pomors. It's the regions of Northern Kostroma and Vologda.

Slavs have like the germanic somewhat equal distribution of R1a, R1b and I

Citation please. Where did you see a Slavic population with the equal percentages of R1b and R1a? If any, can you prove that it was the initial ratio?

[Noaide]

Ok, I admitt it may be a incorrect term to use, maybe "Boermas" is a more correct word to use to represent these peoples living in these areas east of todays Finland. Again please tell me what geographic areas of the Russian republic that is defined as "north-russia", have tried to find out but cant find any good reference, so my second best guess was "Pomors" as defined by as Murmansk and Arkangelsk areas.

My reference is Tambets 2004:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181943

Look at Table 3: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=table&id=TB3

Russians and "north-russians" have different frequency of R1b. As far as I know most Slavs have both R1a, R1b and I.

[MrHappy]

Slavs differ from Germanic groups in their high incidence of R1a1 and lower incidence of R1b.

The I in Slavs is also more frequently I1b, rather than the Germanic I1a and I1c.

[vraatyah]

what geographic areas of the Russian republic that is defined as "north-russia

North of Moscow.

[vraatyah]

The I in Slavs is also more frequently I1b, rather than the Germanic I1a and I1c.

In the Russian North, the ratio becomes reversed.

[MrHappy]

In the Russian North, the ratio becomes reversed.

I wouldn't say reversed. It's mostly because the percentage of I1b drops that far north.

Even in north Russia I1c and I1a do not reach the levels of Germanic countries.

[vraatyah]

It's mostly because the percentage of I1b drops that far north.

Exactly. It's a part of the global I1b South-North trend. As to I1a, it doesn't follow the reversal pattern however its distribution seems intricate in the Russian North.

[Rossi]

YAP and Saami

Once I received my results back from FTDNA and it was determined that I was M35+ (E3b) I went to the YSTR database and found to my surprise considerable (a majority) minimal haplotype matches in the Baltic area, from Estonia and Latvia to North/Central Sweden. What is interesting is that I had previously researched the origin of my last name and it pointed to Ancient Rus (some Swedish Vikings), the Normans and the Russians and so all of a sudden I had some interesting similarities. I searched for further information for quite some time and today I stumbled upon this study:

The Eurasian Heatland....

Please note the surprisingly high E3b (M96) percentage for the Saami (graphs and tables). It is very odd because this is a pocket of otherwise reduced incidence from South to North Europe.

I think there are some answers for me there. E3b supposedly originated in East Africa and is prevalent in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe. It is an old haplogroup.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Noaide]

Please note the surprisingly high E3b (M96) percentage for the Saami (graphs and tables). It is very odd because this is a pocket of otherwise reduced incidence from South to North Europe.

It is correct what you observe, however these observations only belong to the Kola Saami in Russia, it has not been observed among other Saami groups.

I may add hg F is another strange one among the Saami, it has been observed 5.7% among the Swedish Saami. This is not seen among the other Saami groups either including the Kola Saami. It also belong to an African/Arab group.

Source: Tambets 2004

[cavylover]

I recently had my mtDNA tested and the results were in Haplogroup V which is very high among the Saami. However my matrilineal line is of Scotch-Irish origin and they have been living in this country since British colonial times. Could Saami women have come with the Norwegian Vikings when they settled the outer islands of Scotland? Because when I read about the Saami it clicked with my mother's family. And many of their physical features seem to match my matrilineal side. I know that on the Genographic website they have a picture of a woman and a child in Denmark for Haplogroup V and my mother exclaimed that the child looked just like me when I was a toddler. If anyone could answer my question about Saami women and the Norwegian Vikings I would very much like it. Thank you.

http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/se...ns/origin3.htm

"The traditions surrounding the "Norway Finns" - as they became known in Orcadian tradition - travelled with the Norsemen into Orkney and Shetland, where, until recent times, the term 'Finn' was still used to describe wise-women, healers, or 'witches'."

So this may explain some of the occurence of haplogroup N in Britain. The Saamis were skilled bowmen and also had magic powers both useful for the norsemen raiding parties. Also in historic times the Norwegians bought "good weather" from Saami shamans when traveling on the ocean. It seems in Britain there were known as "Finfolks".

Later on in history the Germans accused Sweden for using Saami magic during the battles in the 30 year war, of course those battles the Germans lost.

"One of the oldest accounts relating to the Saami culture was written in Sweden after the 30 Years War. During this conflict, we learn, that the Swedes were accused of using Saami witchcraft."

[Eki]

I recently had my mtDNA tested and the results were in Haplogroup V which is very high among the Saami. However my matrilineal line is of Scotch-Irish origin and they have been living in this country since British colonial times. Could Saami women have come with the Norwegian Vikings when they settled the outer islands of Scotland? Because when I read about the Saami it clicked with my mother's family. And many of their physical features seem to match my matrilineal side. I know that on the Genographic website they have a picture of a woman and a child in Denmark for Haplogroup V and my mother exclaimed that the child looked just like me when I was a toddler. If anyone could answer my question about Saami women and the Norwegian Vikings I would very much like it. Thank you.

Yes, Vikings sometimes married Saami women. But on the other hand, it worked both ways, Saami men sometimes married non-Saami women, so V is not necessarily a "Saami haplogroup" or a "Viking haplogroup".