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The Genetic origin of the Saami people of Scandinavia

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  • Eki
    replied
    Originally posted by Noaide
    I therefore believe this is an old R1a, and why is not the Finns mixture affected by these supposedly Slav migration? Slavic Russians have much of R1a, R1b and I.
    It could be because the Finns and the Russians have been like cats and dogs throughout the history. I've read there's been over 40 wars between the two within the last 1000 years. I'm sure the Finns have not been especially thrilled to welcome a Russian into their family.

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  • Noaide
    replied
    Yes, but do you think these Slavs who gave these genes knew that they had R1a when they supposedly migrated into Scandinavia? Of course not. If they really were Slavs there would also be a high rate of R1b among the Saami's, the Karelians and the Pomors. I therefore believe this is an old R1a, and why is not the Finns mixture affected by these supposedly Slav migration? Slavic Russians have much of R1a, R1b and I.

    Originally posted by Eki
    But from the statistics you posted it looks like the haplogroup R1a originates from the Slavs. Only haplogroups E and F* seem to be unique to Saamis, other ethnic groups in Northern Europe don't seem to have them. Ia1 looks like a Scandinavian haplogroups, N3 looks like a Finnish haplogroup, R1a looks like a Slavic haplogroup and R1b I believe is a Western European haplogroup.

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  • Eki
    replied
    Originally posted by Noaide
    The "north-russians" is not etnically Slavs, they are Pomors. Slavs have like the germanic somewhat equal distribution of R1a, R1b and I. This is not seen among the Pomors, Karelians and the Saami's who have N3, I1a, R1a with little R1b.
    But from the statistics you posted it looks like the haplogroup R1a originates from the Slavs. Only haplogroups E and F* seem to be unique to Saamis, other ethnic groups in Northern Europe don't seem to have them. Ia1 looks like a Scandinavian haplogroups, N3 looks like a Finnish haplogroup, R1a looks like a Slavic haplogroup and R1b I believe is a Western European haplogroup.

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  • Noaide
    replied
    North Russians not Slavs

    The "north-russians" is not etnically Slavs, they are Pomors. Slavs have like the germanic somewhat equal distribution of R1a, R1b and I. This is not seen among the Pomors, Karelians and the Saami's who have N3, I1a, R1a with little R1b.

    Originally posted by Eki
    To me, R1a seems most likely to be Russian, since Russians have the highest frequency (>40%) of those you mentioned. It looks like it has gone from Russia (42.6%) through Northern Russia (40.3%) to Russian Saami (21.7%), then to Swedish Saami (20%) and Sweden (18.4%) while "diluting" on the way.

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  • Eki
    replied
    To me, R1a seems most likely to be Russian, since Russians have the highest frequency (>40%) of those you mentioned. It looks like it has gone from Russia (42.6%) through Northern Russia (40.3%) to Russian Saami (21.7%), then to Swedish Saami (20%) and Sweden (18.4%) while "diluting" on the way.

    Originally posted by Noaide
    WHY IS R1A SAAMI?

    The Swedish Saami have the following:

    N3 - 37%
    I1a - 31.4%
    R1a - 20%
    R1b - 5.7%
    F* - 5.7% (unknown to me)

    The Russian Saami have:

    N3 - 39.1%
    R1a - 21.7%
    I1a - 17.4%
    R1b - 8.7%
    E - 8.7% (unknown to me)

    The Finnish Saami have:

    I1a - 40.6%
    N3 - 55.1%
    R1a - 2.9%
    R1b - 1.4%

    Then look at the neightboring peoples:

    Swedes:

    I1a - 48.2%
    R1b - 22%
    R1a - 18.4%
    N3 - 2.8%

    Finns:

    N3 - 63.2%
    I1a - 28.9%
    R1a - 7.9%
    R1b - 0%

    Russians (slavic):

    R1a - 42.6%
    R1b - 21.3%
    I1a - 13.1%
    N3 - 8.2%
    N2 - 8.2%

    Pomors ("north-russians"):

    I1a - 20.8%
    R1a - 40.3%
    N3 - 28.6%
    R1b - 0%

    (Norwegians not included because they are identical to Swedes)

    You will see imidiatly that the Finnish Saami divert from the other two Saami male groups with its low share of R1a, also worth noticing is the Swedish Saami could not have received their high share of R1a from the Swedish, because then it would be predictable also a high share of R1b. They could either get it from the Finns who has a low rate of R1a. The same apply for the Russian Saami. They could not have received their R1a from the slavic Russians because they have a low rate of R1b.

    Here it seems to be a motif of and old Scandinavian pattern reflected within the Saami people and the Pomors who has a cocktail of N3, I1a and R1a togheter with an almost totalt lack of R1b. Also worth noticing that the Estonials also may belong to the Saami and Pomor male cocktail because of their similar mixture.

    Centraleuropeans included the germanic and the slavs is recognized by a high level of I, R1b and R1a.

    The Finn male lines also have their own history. The influence from germanic, saamis and slavs is also there minimal. But they seem to have affected the Finnish Saami profile to the extent i look similar to the Finnish one. This may have its causes in easier mixture between lingustic related peoples than with germanic or slavs.

    I also have some crude data about other Saami minorities coctail that may be affected by the Finns.

    Skolt Saami ca 55% I1a and ca 45% N3 (Norway/Sweden/Russia)
    Inarisamene ca 65% N3 and ca 30% I1a (Finland, Lake Inari)

    Local Finnish cocktails:

    North Finland ca 85% N3, remaining R1a.
    West-Finland ca 65% N3, 30% I1a, some R1a.
    East-Finland ca 85% N3, ca 15% I1a

    Karelians seems to be related to the Pomors. Se tab fig 1 først link.

    Kilde: http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471/F1
    Kilde http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=table&id=TB3

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  • ChrisS
    replied
    Originally posted by Noaide
    Yes, but my question is what is the majority of N in the Finnish N3a or just N3*?

    N3* (Tat) -->???
    N3a* (M178) ->Saami
    N3a1 (P21) -->???
    Yes, there are certainly different N3 groups...but TAT in the N haplogroup makes one N3 and M178 causes the N3a designation. When I did the SNP test with Trace Genetics they told me that P21 was not available, so they couldn't tell me whether I was N3a1 or N3a*.
    Recently, David Faux of Ethnoacestry has told me the primers to do more refined? testing of N3a are in the works (Proposed N3a(1,2,3,4) .. but they don't exist? yet which seems to confirm what Ripan Mahli with Trace said.
    I'm a bit confused as to how the numbrs at the extreme right of the YCC chart apply to the world .. if there are no such tests.

    As re your question .. I've not seen any finer breaksowns of Finnish or other populations with regards to their subclades of N3 or even as much as you've found about N "cocktails".

    I did read some stuff quite a while back that attributed as much as 95% N3 (I think) in the Buryats of Northern Siberia. There were a couple of other populations, the Evenks and Yakuts who also had high N percentages and I think this was all under an umbrella of discussion about the TAT-C mutation.

    It is these recollections that were leading me to the pseudo-conclusions of my previous post.

    ChrisS
    Last edited by ChrisS; 7 February 2006, 05:44 PM.

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  • Noaide
    replied
    Yes, but my question is what is the majority of N in the Finnish N3a or just N3*?

    There is several different kind of N3:

    YCC 2002: http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenc...stem/fig1.html

    N3* (Tat) -->???
    N3a* (M178) ->Saami
    N3a1 (P21) -->???

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  • ChrisS
    replied
    Originally posted by Noaide
    As I remember N3a was seen in all swedish saami who had N. Do you know if the Finns have this mutation?
    My only direct knowledge is of the family I *almost* match (24/25 with DYS458 being off by one .. 18[me] 17[they] .. but they apparently all have N3a SNP with TAT-C and they trace back to Savilaakso farm near Oulu and prior to the family moving to that farm, they were known as Saarala...and we assume that was the name of the farm from whkich they came prior to 1550 as I understand it.
    Part of our study goal is to determine if there are Sammi connections .. in addition to locating Henrik Saavilakso.
    There is another individual in our study who is similar in priofile and he has traced his family back to the same geographical region in Finland (about 50 mi south of the city of Oulu).
    All these individuals have the DYS458=17 and I'm now thinking, we may all be Saami but from opposite sides of the Baltic...still a very much a weak theory.
    ChrisS
    Last edited by ChrisS; 7 February 2006, 01:08 PM.

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  • Noaide
    replied
    As I remember N3a was seen in all swedish saami who had N. Do you know if the Finns have this mutation?

    "Haplogroup N3, the most frequent haplogroup in the
    Saami population, is distributed in eastern European and
    northern Asian populations but it is rare or absent in
    western Europe (table 3). All analyzed Swedish Saami
    N3 lineages fall into subcluster N3a, defined by M178
    (YCC 2002). Although N3a is widespread in Siberia,
    other haplogroups, characteristic of Samoyedic-speaking
    and other Siberian populations (such as C and Q), are
    either almost absent in Baltic-Finnic populations, including
    the Saami, or are only sporadic, as for haplogroup
    N2, which is found only among Volga region
    Finnic speakers (table 3)"


    Oops, looks like the page is lost. Start your website on the cheap.
    Last edited by Noaide; 7 February 2006, 10:07 AM.

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  • ChrisS
    replied
    Originally posted by ChrisS
    Sveiin,
    Are you by chance the T8JJQ in YSearch? The name is anonymous..but that person is a 24/25 match for me.
    ChrisS

    Svein, never mind .. I located him

    Noaide,
    Have you discovered the relevance of the TAT-C mutation (which is the source of the "a" in the N3a haplogroup, I think)? My feeling is that TAT-C is from the nomadic Siberian tribes and may have been the main folx that formed the Saami .. what do you think?
    ChrisS

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  • Noaide
    replied
    Correction

    I need to correct myself.

    As anybody can see there is a huge difference between North Finns and the Finnish-Saami male hg frequencies. As most of todays male Saami in Finland live in north-Finland its incredible to see that the northern Finns seem to have a huge cake N3 and smaller portion R1a. If the Finns were suppose to have inferred with the Saami mix it should have looked more like the Finnish Saami mix, but it seem not too.

    Originally posted by Noaide
    Skolt Saami ca 55% I1a and ca 45% N3 (Norway/Sweden/Russia)
    Inarisamene ca 65% N3 and ca 30% I1a (Finland, Lake Inari)

    Local Finnish cocktails:

    North Finland ca 85% N3, remaining R1a.
    West-Finland ca 65% N3, 30% I1a, some R1a.
    East-Finland ca 85% N3, ca 15% I1a

    Leave a comment:


  • ChrisS
    replied
    Sveiin,
    Are you by chance the T8JJQ in YSearch? The name is anonymous..but that person is a 24/25 match for me.
    ChrisS

    Leave a comment:


  • Svein Davidsen
    replied
    Haplogroup N migration.

    Noaid.
    A lot of statistical information in this article, and a lot of Haplogroup N3 people. The conclusion seems to be at least two separate inflow of people into Finland, Northern and Eastern Scandinavia far, far into pre-history.

    From my own Haplogroup N3 point of view, with a better match to the Eastern Europe Modal N Haplotype than the Baltic Modal, Fig. 4B in the same article is intersting in that it shows the N3 people moving/migrating from Eastern Europe to Finland/Eastern Scandinavia. One interprtation of the data must be that while your ancestors was part of one of those migrations northward, my ancestors stayed in Eastern Europe, and over time the mutations, especially in the 12-to-37 marker range, gradually distinguished the two populations, or three if we include the German modal N haplotype, but we are still in the same N Haplogroup.

    How, and when, my ancestors subsequently got to Norway is another story - and I will keep looking. There are two 11/11 matches in Romania, but that is not much to go on. Hopefully the databases will grow and one day there will be another trail to follow!

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  • Noaide
    replied
    Possible male Saami haplogroup profile

    WHY IS R1A SAAMI?

    The Swedish Saami have the following:

    N3 - 37%
    I1a - 31.4%
    R1a - 20%
    R1b - 5.7%
    F* - 5.7% (unknown to me)

    The Russian Saami have:

    N3 - 39.1%
    R1a - 21.7%
    I1a - 17.4%
    R1b - 8.7%
    E - 8.7% (unknown to me)

    The Finnish Saami have:

    I1a - 40.6%
    N3 - 55.1%
    R1a - 2.9%
    R1b - 1.4%

    Then look at the neightboring peoples:

    Swedes:

    I1a - 48.2%
    R1b - 22%
    R1a - 18.4%
    N3 - 2.8%

    Finns:

    N3 - 63.2%
    I1a - 28.9%
    R1a - 7.9%
    R1b - 0%

    Russians (slavic):

    R1a - 42.6%
    R1b - 21.3%
    I1a - 13.1%
    N3 - 8.2%
    N2 - 8.2%

    Pomors ("north-russians"):

    I1a - 20.8%
    R1a - 40.3%
    N3 - 28.6%
    R1b - 0%

    (Norwegians not included because they are identical to Swedes)

    You will see imidiatly that the Finnish Saami divert from the other two Saami male groups with its low share of R1a, also worth noticing is the Swedish Saami could not have received their high share of R1a from the Swedish, because then it would be predictable also a high share of R1b. They could either get it from the Finns who has a low rate of R1a. The same apply for the Russian Saami. They could not have received their R1a from the slavic Russians because they have a low rate of R1b.

    Here it seems to be a motif of and old Scandinavian pattern reflected within the Saami people and the Pomors who has a cocktail of N3, I1a and R1a togheter with an almost totalt lack of R1b. Also worth noticing that the Estonials also may belong to the Saami and Pomor male cocktail because of their similar mixture.

    Centraleuropeans included the germanic and the slavs is recognized by a high level of I, R1b and R1a.

    The Finn male lines also have their own history. The influence from germanic, saamis and slavs is also there minimal. But they seem to have affected the Finnish Saami profile to the extent i look similar to the Finnish one. This may have its causes in easier mixture between lingustic related peoples than with germanic or slavs.

    I also have some crude data about other Saami minorities coctail that may be affected by the Finns.

    Skolt Saami ca 55% I1a and ca 45% N3 (Norway/Sweden/Russia)
    Inarisamene ca 65% N3 and ca 30% I1a (Finland, Lake Inari)

    Local Finnish cocktails:

    North Finland ca 85% N3, remaining R1a.
    West-Finland ca 65% N3, 30% I1a, some R1a.
    East-Finland ca 85% N3, ca 15% I1a

    Karelians seems to be related to the Pomors. Se tab fig 1 først link.

    Kilde: http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/3/471/F1
    Kilde http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=table&id=TB3
    Last edited by Noaide; 2 February 2006, 05:42 AM.

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  • Noaide
    replied
    Saami subgroups

    There seem to be genetic subgrouping within both the Saami maternal and paternal lines. This may be understandable considering the enourmous area the Saami have populated in ancient times.

    The Swedish and Kola Saami seem to share a considerable frequency of R1a haplogroup. While the Finnish Saami seem to look more like the Finnish male line with low frequency of R1a. For the Norwegian Saami there is missing data.

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