The Genetic origin of the Saami people of Scandinavia

[Noaide]

Svein,

I did refer to this as an example about N3a in both Saami and Finns, but I do not agree about "recent", this must be based on old info. I do not know where they have it from as I believe N3a have been in Scandinavia for quite some time, also in South Norway. Finnic migration to South-Eastern Norway in the 1600 century and later is also a fact in addition to very old lines of N3a among the South Saami, that in 900th century lived as far south as in Hadeland, just a few miles away from Oslo. I did also earlier give reference to the south-saami presence among the Norsemenn during and after the Viking age.

Noaide's reference to the http://www.ethnoancestry.com/MultiPanels.html page confirms my doubt stating that the Norwegians should not be in N3, unless by recent migration. As I know my direct paternal line back at least 450 years I think that exclude “recent” migration.

[Noaide]

Svein,

Here is a overview page of different suppliers.

http://www.isogg.org/ydnachart.htm

Some of them have detailed N subclade tests.

I need to do a SNP test, but where?

Has anyone used the Ethnoancestry service for SNP testing and how do they compare with the FTDNA tests?

[Svein Davidsen]

Haplogroup N sub-clades.

Even before I saw posting #57 I had started to have doubts about my Haplogroup N3 “status”. The only “evidence” I have that I am in the N3 sub-clade is Whit Athey’s predictor program, and then with quite a low score of 59 only (for my 37 markers). Noaide's reference to the http://www.ethnoancestry.com/MultiPanels.html page confirms my doubt stating that the Norwegians should not be in N3, unless by recent migration. As I know my direct paternal line back at least 450 years I think that exclude “recent” migration.
Also re-reading Athey’s article on his predictor program, http://www.jogg.info/11/athey.htm, I do not think he has a sufficiently large database to differentiate between the various N sub-clades, hence only N3 is listed in his predictor. I need to do a SNP test, but where?

Has anyone used the Ethnoancestry service for SNP testing and how do they compare with the FTDNA tests?

[Noaide]

Phenotype

ChrisS,

When I checked your webpage, I also begun thinking about this. Your fathers phenotype is what from my own opinion is quite charactaristic for many Swedes and Finns, and is not seen so much among the Saami's I have seen or know (at least as far as I can remember), but it does exist some individuals that do have this phenotype from my region. However remember your direct paternal line goes far back, using this logic you may also say your anchestors didnt come from Africa because your not black

My confusion comes based on "phenotype" (physical characteristics) as I perceive the Northern Saami to be of small statue .. in keeping with the hypiothesis of not dissipating so much body head in northern climes.
I am 6'1" and normally about 240 lbs which by most estimates makes me a rather large person. Also with light hair, hazel eys etc.

Chris Scott

[ChrisS]

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/MultiPanels.html
So it may not be possible to distinguish Saami and Finn N3a at this resolution.

... and therein lies the crux of my problem in research ... I'm not the individual to which EA is referring but my results are identical to that one ...
other factors (many of which just as surely are Finn) have led me to believe I might be Saami but until I find my grandfather (confirmed by DNA) I can be sure of no deeper knowledge of male lineage.
The quest is most interesting, however.
ChrisS

[Noaide]

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/MultiPanels.html

"Thus it can be concluded that the individual who submitted the sample belongs to haplogroup N3a which is largely confined to the Saami of Scandinavia (but not generally Norwegians or Swedes except via recent migration), as well as Finns, and adjacent parts of Northern Russia, and some locations in Eastern Europe."

So it may not be possible to distinguish Saami and Finn N3a at this resolution.

As re your question .. I've not seen any finer breaksowns of Finnish or other populations with regards to their subclades of N3 or even as much as you've found about N "cocktails".

ChrisS

[Noaide]

As the point I have been trying to make several times in this thread. Its all about mixes, so when what happends when you try to mix mixes? If you mix Saami with Slav what do you get? A mixture with high occurance of R1b, not seen much at all among the Saami. Same example if mixing with Germanic tribes with Saami, should be high occurence if R1b. But do we see it? No. So then what? Maybe the mix is actually Saami.

That's exactly what I thought. It's not a single haplogroup that makes a Saami Saami, a Finn Finn and a Norse Norse. It 's the different admixtures of several haplogroups. And most of all, culture, language and national identity.

[Noaide]

I am completly easy about this, I never say hg I is only seen among the Saami, but you ignore one important thing that is that we are not talking about pure haplogroups here, we are talking about haplogroup mixes. I still hold on that the people that later on become the Saami culture have been all over Scandinavia. The people that become todays Saami's had their own mixture with some regional differences as we are talking about a huge area and they stayed in Scandinavia for quite some time before the germanic tribes who had their own mixes including their own "I1a" made their entry, we are therefore talking about a SECOND wave of haplogroup migration. The archelogical evidence shows that the Saami's had deep roots far into south-Norway with no trace of germanic tribes present well into year 750 AD. This also apply to Finland where traces of the Saami's goes deep into todays completly Finn territory.

[Eki]

This HG I majority population is currently characterized as Norse but has undergone its own admixture in the Southern extremes of its range with R1b as you noted. Just like the Saami have mixed with N3 and now speak those people's language.

So, HG I could be viewed as both the aboriginal HG of both the Saami and the Norse. You could argue its the high percentage of N3 that makes a Saami a Saami, and the R1b that makes a Dane a Dane.

That's exactly what I thought. It's not a single haplogroup that makes a Saami Saami, a Finn Finn and a Norse Norse. It 's the different admixtures of several haplogroups. And most of all, culture, language and national identity.

[Mikey]

Easy, Noaide, before you start attributing this to racist theories. The scientists putting forth the "N3 as Saami" hypothesis (like Cavalli-Sforza) are the LEAST racist, most tolerant, "don't want to hurt anybody" people.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here in terms.

Maybe those of us posting the "Hg I came from Scandinavian" theories should have written:

"The HG I in the Saami comes from ancient intermingling with the PRECURSORS to WHAT ARE NOW CALLED Scandinavian people."

That is:

1) Ice Age: No people in Scandinavia

2) After Ice Age: Hg I first to get there; root populations of the Hg I Saami and Norse established. (Note no R1b in the group yet).

3) Modern times: Hg I still present.

Put another way, it wasn't MODERN (or even recent) Germanics (who are mixed R1a, R1b and I) who mixed with the Saami; it was an older population (pre mix) that mixed with them.

This HG I majority population is currently characterized as Norse but has undergone its own admixture in the Southern extremes of its range with R1b as you noted. Just like the Saami have mixed with N3 and now speak those people's language.

So, HG I could be viewed as both the aboriginal HG of both the Saami and the Norse. You could argue its the high percentage of N3 that makes a Saami a Saami, and the R1b that makes a Dane a Dane.

Make sense? If it doesn't, use a traditional (widely accepted) model (like New World mestizo or Briton) as an allegory:

e.g., the precolumbian New World was mostly Q or whatever. The Spanish invaders brought R1b or whatever. The new mestizo populations (in Mexico, for example) which bear Q and R1b, are defined as part Spanish, part Native American.

In Belize, Cuba, Brazil, etc., many of the "invader" genes were from African slaves. So to define a "Brazilian," different than a Mexican, you could cite the fact that 30% of the Brazilian population bears African chromosomes.

That's all we're doing here.

Now apply to Scandinavia:

Hg I is aboriginal.

What makes a Saami a Saami is the N3 (Asiatic) blood; what makes a Norse a Norse is the R1b (Western European) blood.

It's really that simple.

[Eki]

This website suggest that the Norse R1a may have come from Siberia:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1a.html

[Eki]

All of this is wrong.

It seems incredible difficult for people to understand this.

1. If the Saami had their I1a from the Germanic, why dont we see more of R1b that the Germanic population is full of including the Norwegians and the Swedes? Or do you think immigrants knew their haplogroup?

2. Same with the Russian or Slavic, why dont we see more of R1b that the Russians is full of in the Saami? We only see a similar profile from the earlier uralic speaking Pomors, Karelians and the Estonians, they however is NOT etnic Slavs!

Probably for the same reason Finns have 0% R1b. Maybe R1b people from Western Europe arrived Scandinavia later than I1a people and Russia later than R1a people, and never spread as far as Northern Scandinavia and Finland. R1b is most likely much younger haplogroup in Northern Europe than I1a, N3 or even R1a.

[Noaide]

All of this is wrong.

It seems incredible difficult for people to understand this.

1. If the Saami had their I1a from the Germanic, why dont we see more of R1b that the Germanic population is full of including the Norwegians and the Swedes? Or do you think immigrants knew their haplogroup?

2. Same with the Russian or Slavic, why dont we see more of R1b that the Russians is full of in the Saami? We only see a similar profile from the earlier uralic speaking Pomors, Karelians and the Estonians, they however is NOT etnic Slavs!

3. Hg N3 in the Saami do not belong to invader groups. It is believed to have been there since the iceage. More research about N3 is beeing done and the variations is highest in eastern europe and NOT in Siberia suggesting origin in Europe. N3 is not associated in much degree with the Mongol invaders. Mongol genes is not seen at all among the Saami (N2, C and Q).

All of this is "myths" constructed with bias from old racist theories in Scandinavia in attempts to alienate the Saami population and legitimate their own rule.

Don't mean to seem terse (at all), but I thought most researchers agreed:

1) the HG I among the Saami comes from "intermarriage" with the Germanic Norse populations to the South and West

2) the HG R1a among the Saami comes from "intermarriage" with the Russian or North Slavic populations from the South and East.

3) the HG N among the Saami is the original Saami Asiatic "invader" haplogroup.

Thus, N (or N3 to be more precise), is the prototypical "Saami" haplogroup.

[Mikey]

Don't mean to seem terse (at all), but I thought most researchers agreed:

1) the HG I among the Saami comes from "intermarriage" with the Germanic Norse populations to the South and West

2) the HG R1a among the Saami comes from "intermarriage" with the Russian or North Slavic populations from the South and East.

3) the HG N among the Saami is the original Saami Asiatic "invader" haplogroup.

Thus, N (or N3 to be more precise), is the prototypical "Saami" haplogroup.

[Noaide]

As far as I know the Saami has not liked them either, but it still dont explain why only R1a is seen there. As I have mentioned before slavs and germanics is recongized etnically by an about equal composition of R1a, R1b and I.

It could be because the Finns and the Russians have been like cats and dogs throughout the history. I've read there's been over 40 wars between the two within the last 1000 years. I'm sure the Finns have not been especially thrilled to welcome a Russian into their family.