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The Genetic origin of the Saami people of Scandinavia

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  • #16
    The Sami and Basque language connection

    I continue on my adventure of understanding the Saami origin, this article goes abit away from genetics but still highly relevant and exciting

    As noted earlier the genetic profile of the saami suggest the majority came from the Iberia refugia during the last ice age. It has been suggested that the people in this refugie spoke a non-indoeuropean language, possible related to the Basque languge still spoken in northern Spain and southern France today. When the saami anchestrors reached scandinavia they met the uralic speakers from the Ukraine refugia who would change their language over time, but did they loose all their traces of their earlier language? Some language scientists suggest that there is still strong substratum of this possible Basque related language in modern Saami today.

    http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~lillekas/mainlanguage.html#22

    "The “fans” of the population migrations from the Iberian and the Ukrainian refuges as well as in the Lapps’ area of departure on the North Sea Land towards Scandinavia, partly overlap (see Fig. 3). Therefore Wiik supposes some substratum of the Basque type in the then Lapp language admitting, though, that he cannot concretely show it. Such substratum is still worth looking for in the present-day Lapp languages by way of comparison with a single preserved Basque language type – namely Modern Basque. Michel Morvan has shown (Morvan 199?: 36) that already around the middle of the 19th c. Louis-Lucien Bonaparte indicated the possibility of a connection between the Basque and Lapp (and Hungarian) plural marker -k (Bonaparte 1862). The possibility of the connection of the plural marker -k in Basque and Lapp substantives is noted also by Morvan himself, cf. e.g. Basque guk Euskaldunok ‘nous les Basques’ (Morvan 199?: 192–193). However, from the aspect of the Uralic language group I regard the plural marker of the Lapp substantives rather as a detached phenomenon of foreign origin – why not as the Basque substratum? – than some common-Uralic suffix. Besides Lapp languages the plural marker -k of substantives occurs only in Hungarian but even this is exceptional. Marcantonio notes about the Hungarian plural marker -k (Marcantonio 2002: 234–235), “Unlike most U[ralic] languages, Hungarian has a different Plural ending, used both for nouns … and for verbs: the ending -k. A Plural -k is found also in Lapp, although this is generally considered as deriving from *-t … […] The origin of -k is disputed. Some researchers believe that it derives from a derivational suffix *-kkV … This explanation looks a bit far-fetched. […] Aalto … considers the possibility of connecting -k with the Samoyed co-affixal element *-k(ø)- …, as well with the Tungus, Turkic and Mongolian collective ending -g. […] A Plural -k exists also in Dravidian.”

    Another example of the Basque-type substratum in Lapp languages may be the evidence of the North-Lapp word-initial semi-voiced or voiceless medial plosive stops b-, d-, g-. Namely, Morvan links the Basque word er(h)i ‘doigt’ and the variant bælge of the Lapp word ‘thumb’, considering the word form *ber(e)xī as a proto-Basque reconstruction (Morvan 199?: 242–243). Morvan’s concrete word etymology is erroneous already from the viewpoint of incompatible consonants r – l (cf. also Rédei 1986–1991: 383), but what is interesting here is drawing attention to the Lapp word-initial consonant b- against the Basque language-historical background"

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    • #17
      I prefer Dentate's answer over my own.

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      • #18
        P.S. Ethnoancestry offers a mtdna subclade test.

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        • #19
          I have like Davidsen found out that I belong to a Finnic/Baltic group of N. On my 12 marker test I get exact 12 match against the Finnic/Baltic modal haplotype. I dont know if this is for sure because it seems a swedish guy have put these modal groups on www.ysearch.org. This guy also says the Finnic/Baltic is most likely N3, that Atheys Y-Predictor also suggest. What about the other subclades he has defined as the Germanic subgroup and the East-European subgroup. Do anyone know the subclade notation for these ones?

          Is it possible to increase the resolution to identify specific saami subclades? Have anyone ever identified saami specific subclades of N3?

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          • #20
            Finn or Siberian?

            Hello,
            I've been in testing since 2002 or thereabouts for Y-DNA, RFLP siblingship tests and mtDNA tests and *still* wonder where my paternal line snakes back to!
            My Ysearch ID is S93DR and I'm the admin for the Saline family project at FTDNA.
            Last year I was SNP tested by Trace Genetics and shown to be N3a. This confirmed and epanded FTDNA's SNP test of LLY22g+ and added TAT-C+ and M178+ which seems to land me firmly in the Saami peoples.
            My confusion comes based on "phenotype" (physical characteristics) as I perceive the Northern Saami to be of small statue .. in keeping with the hypiothesis of not dissipating so much body head in northern climes.
            I am 6'1" and normally about 240 lbs which by most estimates makes me a rather large person. Also with light hair, hazel eys etc.
            My readings on the internet had begun to lead me to the Evenks and Yakuts in Northern Siberia. One article seemed to indicated that one of the nomadic tribes was possibly the "seed point" (my term) for the blond haired, hazel eyed Caucasian men .. which accurately describes me and my father.
            I do realize that the N3 haplogroup is found in much of Scandinavia as well as the Eastern Baltic (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania in particular)
            I find NO matches for my 37 marker Y-DNA test as yet but the Saline family who traces back to the mid-1500s as the Savilaakso family south of Oulu, Finland .. *only* differes on 5 markers but a genetic distance of 9.
            I lean toward a belief that I am very distantly related to the Savilaakso family even if 500+ years hence. Their family lore says the came to Finland from the Hungarian regions of Easten Europe but they aren't certain of that.
            Ethnoancestry has suggested they might be offering finer resoution testing of the N3a haplogroup next year (2006) for at least a couple of the N3a(1-4) subclads .. here's hoping.
            Chris Scott

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            • #21
              Message from another LLY22G.

              I'm also HG N (LLY22G), Ysearch ID SW7S9. Interestingly we match 12/12, "NOAIDE" will be the same as we are also 12/12, but when I increase the number of markers we are 16/25 with Gen.Dist 11, and only 22/37 with Gen.Dist of 21. So obviously we are not closely related, even though we are both on the LLY22G arm.

              If you compare your allele values with the Baltic, Eastern Europe and German Y-DNA Modal haplotypes, 7EEQP,EF3BY and YS2QZ respectively, you will find that your Gen Dist is 14, 21 and 22 respectively. For my values I have a Gen.Dist. of 17, 9 and 16 respectively, so I definately am closer to the Eastern Europe modal haplotype than the Baltic, even though I can trace my paternal line in Norway back to ca. 1616 in Vestfold.

              You should also read the postings on the Thread "Where to find modal haplotypes for N.....etc" also on this forum. Noaide has posted a lot of useful info for us Haplogroup N people!

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              • #22
                More comments.

                ChrisS,
                I should also have added that very few of the "physical appearance" genes reside on the Y chromosome so being Haplogroup N does not imply being short and "stubby"! I'm 6'3" and my son is 6'7" so this characteristic comes from one or more of our other 100's of male ancestors.

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                • #23
                  Here I can add an excellent study by Niskanen regarding Saami physical appearances and the misterstanding of Saami facial appearance as mongoloid, when it is actually remains from the ancient Cro-Magnon that the Saami kept because of the isolation.

                  http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samp...ccorrected.pdf

                  "The Baltic-Finns and, as a surprise to many people, also the
                  Saami exhibit clearly North European phenotypes. Epicanthic
                  eyefolds, flat faces, coarse straight hair, and other Mongoloid
                  traits are not encountered among them more frequently than
                  among other Europeans (Coon 1939, Brues 1977). Strong
                  cheekbones and flaring zygomatic arches of many Finno-
                  Ugrians, commonly and erroneously assumed to be Mongoloid
                  features, are actually inherited from European Cro-Magnons
                  (Coon 1939, Niskanen 1994b). These two “Paleo-European”
                  features have survived especially well among the Finno-Ugrians
                  of northern Europe because, as the archeological evidence
                  presented by Zvelebil (1986) indicates, the subsistence transition
                  from foraging to farming occurred more recently and with a
                  lesser influx of immigrants in these marginal regions for
                  agriculture than further south."




                  Originally posted by Svein Davidsen
                  ChrisS,
                  I should also have added that very few of the "physical appearance" genes reside on the Y chromosome so being Haplogroup N does not imply being short and "stubby"! I'm 6'3" and my son is 6'7" so this characteristic comes from one or more of our other 100's of male ancestors.

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                  • #24
                    Phenotypes

                    Svein,
                    Yes, I undertand that phenotype (physical characteristics) is not necessarily identified with haplogroup.
                    I'm in the process of trying to make sense out of the obvious (physical) similarites between myself and two separate families (paternal and maternal) each of which I'm sure of my placement in... if your curiosity just overwhelms you <grin> .. my website is at http://wcscott.net. I've used it to 'scratchpad' my research efforts over the past few years .. I do plan to clean up and organize a bit more in the near future but you can see the pix of my family to which I refer on that site.

                    Noaide,
                    Thanks for all the neat info you are providing...I'm headed out right now to read up on your latest post

                    BTW, do either of you have the TAT-C mutation that is supposed to be common to the Saami peoples? I *think* that SNP is what places me in the N3a as oppsed to <only> N3 haplogroup.
                    Happy Holidays,
                    ChrisS

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                    • #25
                      I am a Saami and I do have N3 (unconfirmed but highly likely). Tat-C is N3*, N3a and N3a1.

                      http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenc...stem/fig1.html

                      Swedish Saami was according to a research paper I read, only N3a. My STR also matched N3 in a recent Norwegian research paper by Dupuy 2005.

                      Originally posted by ChrisS
                      BTW, do either of you have the TAT-C mutation that is supposed to be common to the Saami peoples? I *think* that SNP is what places me in the N3a as oppsed to <only> N3 haplogroup.
                      Happy Holidays,
                      ChrisS

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Noaide
                        I am a Saami and I do have N3 (unconfirmed but highly likely). Tat-C is N3*, N3a and N3a1.

                        http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenc...stem/fig1.html

                        Swedish Saami was according to a research paper I read, only N3a. My STR also matched N3 in a recent Norwegian research paper by Dupuy 2005.
                        Noaide,
                        My SNP tests revealed that I am not a N3a1 .. I think that was based on the P-21 being negative. I do match (on my first 12 markers) a Finn family that accepted a Swedish surname of Selin so that they could attend school(s) in Sweden. Not sure exactly when this occured but I suspect in the 1700s or thereabouts. Their origianal Finnish name was Savilaakso and/or Saarala. I think these were the two farms whcih the family lived on.
                        The man who is my grandfather was in the US or Canada around 1918 or so since my father was conceived in Buffalo, NY around that time.
                        So, what I am in pursuit of, is a family with similar genetic markers who might have had male relatives in NY or Ontario around the turn of the century. My 37 maker profile is relatively rare even though I'm a 24/25 marker match for the Saline family. We mismatch on 4 of the final 12 panel of 37 markers with a GD of 9. These final makers are all fast movers but the 4 cousins i've tested from the Saline familey are nearly identical (only 1 varies by 1 allele) and their common ancestor goes back about 100 years .. about 2 or 3 generations (they are all about my age of 60) so we are looking for a common ancester in the 300-500 year range in Finland.
                        Merry Xmas,
                        ChrisS

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                        • #27
                          I believe Oulu in Finland is within the traditional area of the Saami, so who knows...

                          By the way, as far as I know there was some Saami migration to the US/Canada in the 1800-1900th century.
                          Last edited by Noaide; 25 December 2005, 02:29 PM.

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                          • #28
                            That was good to hear about the emigrations, Noaide, as my Saline bunch came to the US around 1830 or so. We'll know a bit more about things in a month or so when our results come back on our SNP testing.
                            ChrisS

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                            • #29
                              Haplogroup N &amp; Tat C mutation

                              ChrisS,
                              Re your question on the Tat C mutation. When I received my first test results, the Genographic Project via FTDNA, they told me I was Haplogroup N (LLY22G). I don't know if that means that I did not have any further SNP mutations or if they only tested so far. Doing the Whit Athey test now gives N3, but then that is the only N he now lists, so I don't exactly know where on the N "tree" I fit. May be I should run the SNP tests to find out.

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                              • #30
                                Oulu is Saami name for &quot;floodwater&quot;

                                http://oulu.ouka.fi/city/english/

                                "Oulu is the largest city in Northern Finland. Founded in 1605 by King Karl IX of Sweden opposite the castle built on the island of Linnansaari, Oulu is situated by the Gulf of Bothnia, at the mouth of Oulu River, which is an ancient trading site. The name Oulu comes from a word in the Sami language meaning floodwater. Oulu has been the capital of Oulu province since 1776. From being a town known for tar and salmon, Oulu has evolved into a growing modern centre of competence. The City of Oulu will be celebrating its 400th anniversary in 2005. "

                                See, even a big city so far south in central-Finland have a Saami name! Your deep into old Saami territory. This is also worth to note about some bigger cities at the Swedish bottenviken coast like Luleå, who have the original saami name of "Luleju", who according to what I read means "In the east", but the ending make me think it has something to do with water. I recognize the ending of the "-lu", in Saami the word for "island" is "Soulu"
                                Last edited by Noaide; 26 December 2005, 05:30 PM.

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