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What the heck is R1b

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  • What the heck is R1b

    What does haplogroup R1b really mean? Is it really that broad?

  • #2
    Originally posted by loftin2668 View Post
    What does haplogroup R1b really mean? Is it really that broad?
    Yes R1b is that broad. One of the most common Haplogroups in Western Europe.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...stribution.jpg

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    • #3
      I don't mean to sound nit-picky or over-fastidious, but I'm sure what you all are referring to is R1b1b2 (M269) and its offshoots, since R1b (M343) is way upstream now and there probably isn't a man alive in the modern world who is actually R1b*.

      Take a look at the 2009 ISOGG R Tree to see what I mean:

      http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

      In fact, most of the "R1b" in Europe consists of subclades of R1b1b2a1 (P310) and is thus well downstream even from M269.

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      • #4
        Yepp Stevo

        Originally posted by Stevo View Post
        I don't mean to sound nit-picky or over-fastidious, but I'm sure what you all are referring to is R1b1b2 (M269) and its offshoots, since R1b (M343) is way upstream now and there probably isn't a man alive in the modern world who is actually R1b*.

        Take a look at the 2009 ISOGG R Tree to see what I mean:

        http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

        In fact, most of the "R1b" in Europe consists of subclades of R1b1b2a1 (P310) and is thus well downstream even from M269.
        Yepp. Thats what I was referring to. All the name changes for the R clade are hard to keep up with. So far I've only seen a few name changes for Haplogroup I.

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        • #5
          Diversity and Age

          Diversity is thought to be a sign of an older age which was an original prediction. Hunter-gathers moved, traded, and did all sorts of things. Also, natural disasters causing migrations can alter modern perceptions of data. After the Younger Dryas, people had to move because of the particular ice age, and so we are finding various populations of R1b people. Agriculture helped people to settle as did the development of language while other people still enjoyed hunting, trading, sailing, horseback riding, and gathering.

          We are all waiting for some converging results, but the research is not finished (yet).

          Originally posted by spruithean View Post
          Yepp. Thats what I was referring to. All the name changes for the R clade are hard to keep up with. So far I've only seen a few name changes for Haplogroup I.
          Last edited by GregKiroKHR1bL1; 20 January 2009, 01:20 PM.

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          • #6
            Since the Younger Dryas occurred about 11,000-10,000 years ago, it seems unlikely there was any R1b in Europe at that time, and R1b1b2 did not even exist yet anywhere.

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            • #7
              Hg R1b before Hg R1a? Age of Hg I? Just a Guess

              Many time scales put hg R1b before hg R1a . . . Lately, some people have been thinking an older hg I age than hg R. Hg R1b seems to me to be very diverse when compared with I1 and I2. I find this difficult to understand. And, I am unsure how people measure hg age after this or that or the other thing. ISOGG 2009 puts the age of hg I older than hg R, and the estimates for the MRCA of R1b's location has slowly been drifting to the east over the years according to various sites.

              (2008) I1 and I2
              The two main subgroups of haplogroup I likely divided approximately 28,000 years ago
              (2008) Y-DNA haplogroup R is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined sublcades are R1 and R2.
              I still look at my old observations (which is a little old by now), and I always leave dates out (some times I feel as if I should leave out location, but I think of slow migration. It is difficult for me to think of a large group of people ten thousand years ago migrating all at once from Asia to Western Europe in ten years):

              M168** R1b separated from C(P143), D, E3b
              M89**** R1b separated from J, G and I
              M173*** R1b separated from R1a

              The problem that I have is that humans did things 35,000 years ago. And it seems as if from Belgium to Sibera people were hunting and gathering mostly likely with Palaeolithic dogs. To this date, I have not read a good answer to this, and so I have not accepted any time scale especially without carbon dating and other historical research. The Ice Age is just one way to create bottlenecks around 10 to 18 kya due to survival rates used in modern DNA calculations. (You know how people react towards each other and such . . . )

              The Epigravettian Mezin 5490 (Russia) and Mezhirich (Ukraine) skulls are also identified as being Palaeolithic dogs. Select Belgian specimens were analysed for mtDNA and stable isotopes. All fossil samples yielded unique DNA sequences, indicating that the ancient Belgian large canids carried a substantial amount of genetic diversity.

              Savolainen, Peter; Ya-ping Zhang, Jing Luo, Joakim Lundeberg, and Thomas Leitner (2002-11-22). "Genetic Evidence for an East Asian Origin of Domestic Dogs". Science 298 (5598): 1610 - 1613.
              It is just not enough data for me to agree to any one hypothesis . . . I do favor an eastward migration of the hg R people to Western Europe thou but I doubt if everybody wanted to go.
              Last edited by GregKiroKHR1bL1; 23 January 2009, 08:02 PM.

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              • #8
                What I mean is a slow migration of hg R people from the East into Western Europe without a lost of communication with their homeland for some time. I doubt if they went through America to Western Europe. However, with some estimates of R1b I am hearing, I am starting to wonder.

                I do favor an eastward migration of the hg R people to Western Europe thou but I doubt if everybody wanted to go.

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