Haplogroup R1a

[cacio]

Kaiser et al:

is there any information on the variability of R1a in Iran, or in the relation between Indian and Iranian R1a? The variance contours move west to east, so one wonders what happens further west. Also, I didn't check the paper, but is the highest frequency found in balochistan or is it more generally in sindh/karachi etc.? it's hard to say from the map. Karachi would have lots of groups (eg the Parsi) whose inclusion may be problematic for variance issues.

cacio

[father_R2]

Indeed, the highest variance of R1a1 in Baluchistan home to couple of millions of Dravidian speakers(Brahui) is also problamatic.

[lgmayka]

Interesting, if R1a did spread from western India then I do not think that they would have originally been Indo-European speakers.

Proto-Indo-European, by the usual linguistic definition, is less than 10,000 years old:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language#When_was_PIE_spoken.3F

Since R1a now appears to be of greater age than that, it stands to reason that the original tribe of R1a was speaking either some antecedent of Proto-Indo-European, or conceivably something very different. We have no reliable means to reconstruct linguistic prehistory that far back.

[Kaiser]

Kaiser et al: is there any information on the variability of R1a in Iran, or in the relation between Indian and Iranian R1a? The variance contours move west to east, so one wonders what happens further west. cacio

Cacio: A recent paper, Iran: Tricontinental Nexus for Y-Chromosome Driven Migration, M. Regueiro et al, June 2006 (Human Heridity) addresses your R1a question: "The variance contours move west to east, so one wonders what happens further west?"

I quote: "A group R lineage of Asian descent, R1a1-M198, is found at higher frequencies in the south rather than the north of Iran (15.38 vs. 3.03%). Interestingly, the M198 lineage has been linked with the spread of the Kurgan culture originating in southern Russia/Ukraine in the region between the Black and Caspian Seas. Furthermore, Wells et al, described a reduction in frequency of M198 eastward across Siberia to the Altai-Sayan Mountains and Mongolia, and southward into India. This finding supports the inferred migration of the Indo-Iranians during the period 3,000 to 1,000 B.C. as proposed by Mallory, although models of one haplogroup coinciding with one migration are inherently simplistic, especiallywhen high frequency clades within contiguous continental areas are involved. In fact it has been shown that at least some R1a1 chromosomes dispersed earlier."

"From the disparate M198 frequencies observed for the north and south of Iran, it is possible to envision a movement southward towards India where the lineage may have had an influence on the populations south of the Iranian deserts and where the Dasht-e-Lut desert would have played a significant role in preventing the expansion of this marker to the north of Iran. The lower frequencies of M198 in the region of Anatolia (11.8% in Greece and 6.9% in Turkey, with a statistically significant longitudinal correlation) and the Caucasus (10% in Georgia, 6% in Armenia and 7% in Azerbaijan) suggests that population movement was southward towards India and then westward across the Iranian plateau. In addition, the detection of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages in Iran at higher frequencies than observed for either Turkey, Pakistan or India suggests the hypothesis that geographic origin of haplogroup R may be nearer Persia."

As for R1a in Pakistan, you were right in pointing out that the frequency spread map doesn't quite depict an idea of frequency as well as the actual tables do. So here are a few quick ones on R1a1 in Pakistan:

Sindhi: 52%; Pathan: 40%; Baluchi: 28%; Brauhi (Dravidian): 24%; Makrani (East African-origin ethnic group): 25%; Kalash (Caucasus-origin ethnic group): 20%.

Remember that some of these groups have very small populations (eg, Kalash number only 3,000 people), so the percentages are not necessarily reflective of the overall R1a1 numbers.

As for Parsis whose influx into India (Gujerat-Ahmedabad and Maharashtra-Mumbai) and Pakistan (Sindh-Karachi) was (intriguingly) largely male-mediated, have the following Y-Chromosome composition:

J1/J2a,b = 40%; R1b3 = 27%; L = 18%; R1a = 8%; E1/E2 (YAP) = 5%.

This post is a bit long-winded, but I thought it might be helpful.

[J Man]

The very high percentage of haplogroup J among the Parsis really does seem to point to a Persian origin.




Y-DNA: J2a*

[cacio]

Kaiser:

thanks for the information. The idea was to check if and to what extent diversity of R1a1 is due to a western/iranian origin (versus a local Indian origin or a northern route from the Hindukush).

I went and looked at the Regueiro paper myself - but it seems there aren't really enough observations to say much. Northern Iran has 33 total observations- southern iran 117, so really there's not much to say about N Iran. A striking thing is that the fraction of R1a is smaller in Iran than in India. Even in the south, it's 15%. In the north, it's hard to say - but there are only 2 observations out of 33. And the presence of R1axR1a1 (stressed in the paper)- it's just 1 observation in the North- so I don't see how one can use this as a sign of origin or higher diversity of R1a in Iran.

A more interesting thing though is the presence of R1b in numbers greater than in India (5-15%). This could point to a higher diversity of R1 in general in Iran. There are 3 undifferentiated R1 in S Iran (and one in the North) - these would be quite interesting if confirmed. I have not been reading about R1* but I can't recall its presence in any particular place (except in Africa/Cameroon).

So, anyway, it seems to me the Regueiro paper is suggestive for R1, but doesn't say much about R1a. It could have originated there, and from there to India. But the Indian numbers are probably more consistent with a migration from central asia as well (or primarily from). And one can even explain the Southern Iranian R1a as a migration from India into Iran. Further study may be helpful in isolating Central Asian vs Iranian haplotype.

Another suggestive piece of information in the paper is about my own L haplogroup. While much smaller in Iran, it seems distributed among all three subgroups L1-L2-L3 (though, again, we're talking about 5 observations). Whether this higher diversity is consistent with an Iranian origin rather than a NW Indian one remains to be seen.

cacio

[Eki]

I recently tested my autosomal DNA at DNATribes and curiously had about as high match with the Nepal Sherpas as with Finns, Icelandic and Norwegians, and also had some relatively high matches in northern India (see the attached file). First I thought the Asian matches were flukes, but now I found this curious mention on a Shetland DNA project page that says an R1a individual had an exact match in Nepal. Could it be that R1a people came from Nepal/Northern India to Scandinavia or the other way around?

http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandislandsY-DNA.html

"Conclusions: The ancestors of Lawrence Mathewson of Aywick and Utrabister, Mid Yell, son of Matthew Thomason and grandson of Thomas Mathewson (of Copister, South Yell, d. 1687), were likely Norse Vikings (suggested by R1a grouping) who settled in Shetland circa 800 AD. Due to patronymics, the surnames of his surviving descendants in the male line today are either Mathewson or Williamson. The DNA signature is very rare. In worldwide DNA databases, the largest number of close matches is with the Altai people of Central Asia. The only exact matches in about 100,000 samples are found in Nepal, and Western Norway, as well as Shetland including the large family with the surname Blance from Delting, whose relationship has not yet been ascertained via genealogical record sources."

[Kaiser]

Eki: Nepal should have a high concentration of R1a, since it is just next to the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh which is rich in R1a. Genetic matches of peoples so far apart geographically are intriguing, but possible. This possibility is more profound if we assume the place of origin to be somewhere between Nepal and Norway, with omnidirectional migrations resulting in the spread as we see it today. Poland & Ukraine fit in just fine. For Indian/Nepali R1a to spread out as far as Scandinavia (or vice versa) seems a bit far-fetched, unless there is a study to the contrary. Amazing stuff anyway!

[Kaiser]

Parsi Y-DNA Composition

As for Parsis whose influx into India (Gujerat-Ahmedabad and Maharashtra-Mumbai) and Pakistan (Sindh-Karachi) was (intriguingly) largely male-mediated, have the following Y-Chromosome composition:

J1/J2a,b = 40%; R1b3 = 27%; L = 18%; R1a = 8%; E1/E2 (YAP) = 5%.

I stand corrected on the above breakdown posted previously. I had erred in converting the old denomination of Haplogroup 1 as simply R1b. As a matter of fact, it includes P*, P1 (Now R2), R*, R1 and R1b* through R1b8.

So instead of R1b3 = 27%, amend to read (old) Haplogroup 1 ie: P*, R2, R*, R1 and R1b* through R1b8 = 27%.

The rest of the figures correspond correctly after conversion.

PS: Thanks Manju, for pointing out the error.

[Eki]

Eki: Nepal should have a high concentration of R1a, since it is just next to the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh which is rich in R1a. Genetic matches of peoples so far apart geographically are intriguing, but possible. This possibility is more profound if we assume the place of origin to be somewhere between Nepal and Norway, with omnidirectional migrations resulting in the spread as we see it today. Poland & Ukraine fit in just fine. For Indian/Nepali R1a to spread out as far as Scandinavia (or vice versa) seems a bit far-fetched, unless there is a study to the contrary. Amazing stuff anyway!

Archaeological findings (dated about 500 to 800 AD) in Finnish Southern Ostrobothnia suggest that there might have been a trade route from central Scandinavia through Finland all the way to India. Necklace made out of seashells that grow in India and were used as money there were found in Southern Ostrobothnia.

Curiously, according to Lappalainen et al, the frequency of R1a in Finland is the highest in Southern Ostrobothnia. Southern Ostrobothnia had about 19% of R1a, while the average in whole Finland was only 7%:

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/finns.pdf

[Kaiser]

Sea Shell Trade & R1a

Necklace made out of seashells that grow in India and were used as money there were found in Southern Ostrobothnia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokhta_Koh (My article)

"Silvio Durante's study (1979) of marine shells from India and their appearance in the archaeological record in such distant sites as Tepe Yahya and Shahr-i-Sokhta in Iran, as well as in the Indus Valley, sheds light on the ancient trading routes of certain types of shells which are specifically and exclusively found along the Indian coastline proper. Durante primarily discusses the marine shell Xancus pyrum and the fact that it was traded whole and intact, then worked or reworked (into jewellry? sic) at its destination site, perhaps then moving on to other locations. The importance of this specific shell is that Xancus pyrum has a very limited geographic distribution and thus has almost the same significance in the field of shells as that of lapis lazuli in the context of mineral resources (as regards the determination of the possible routes along which a locally unavailable raw material is transported from a well-defined place of origin to the place where it is processed and, as also in the case of Xancus pyrum, consumed). Perhaps, as these shells crossed so many cultural hands, they were left unworked in order for the final owner or consumer to work the raw material into a style and usage specific to their region."

It may be noted that the sea-shell trade route pointed out by Durante does not go much beyond Iran and Mesopotomia. Wonder what is the source of the Finland-India sea-shell trade (and R1a exchange)?

[Eki]

[url]
It may be noted that the sea-shell trade route pointed out by Durante does not go much beyond Iran and Mesopotomia. Wonder what is the source of the Finland-India sea-shell trade (and R1a exchange)?

The source (a book in Finnish) that mentioned the seashells believes the route went through the Khazar State:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

The following note in the above Wikipedia article is interesting considering the common stereotype associated with the Vikings (it must be noted here that "handsome" is just a matter of taste of the Arab writer):

"The Khazars' tribal structure is not well understood. They were divided between Ak-Khazars ("White Khazars") and Kara-Khazars ("Black Khazars"). The Arab writer Istakhri claimed that the White Khazars were strikingly handsome with reddish hair, white skin and blue eyes while the Black Khazars were swarthy verging on deep black as if they were some kind of Indian. Most scholars, however, dispute this."

[Eki]

It's also interesting to notice that the Khazars are said to have converted to Judaism. Maybe that explains my autosomal match with the Ashkenazi Jews in Budapest?

[Kaiser]

R1a>Nepal>India>Pakistan>Finland>Sea-shells>Khazars....

I am not aware of Khazar Y-DNA composition, but a good proportion (50%) of Haplogroup R2 on ySearch database are Jewish of East European (Hungary, Ukraine, Latvia) extraction. (The other half of R2 is of South Asian origin.) It has been speculated that Khazars may be the precursors of the this Jewish element amongst R2. The Western Caspian region that includes Astrakhan, Kalmykia, Stavropol, Dagestan and Chechnya has a sizeable incidence of Haplogroup R2 with Chechens topping at 16%. However, the distribution of R1a in erstwhile Khazar territory hovers around 5-6%, with Abazinians topping at 14%. (Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the Caucasus, I. Nasidze, 2004.)

In its heyday, Khazar territory touched Baltic states, so trading and socio-cultural contacts (including transfer of genetic material) between Baltic/Scandanivia and Khazar 'Khaganate' is entirely plausible.

The idea behind post about Khazars was to reaffirm their minor but important R1a and R2 contribution to the East European and Scandanavian gene pool.

[Eki]

Kaiser: I also had an autosomal match with Kachari (Northeast India). Do you know if there's a known link between Kachari and Kazhars? The names have a same ring, in my opinion.