Haplogroup R1a

[kushash]

Hyperaggressive Dravidian revisionist fanatics are not interested in the truth about Indo-Germanic influence in India but are consumed in promoting their own ahistorical, victomological, Marxoid agenda.

Let's let an authority, Spencer Wells, speak:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/27inter.htm

Some people say Aryans are the original inhabitants of India. What is your view on this theory?

The Aryans came from outside India. We actually have genetic evidence for that. Very clear genetic evidence from a marker that arose on the southern steppes of Russia and the Ukraine around 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. And it subsequently spread to the east and south through Central Asia reaching India. It is on the higher frequency in the Indo-European speakers, the people who claim they are descendants of the Aryans, the Hindi speakers, the Bengalis, the other groups. Then it is at a lower frequency in the Dravidians. But there is clear evidence that there was a heavy migration from the steppes down towards India.

But some people claim that the Aryans were the original inhabitants of India. What do you have to say about this?

I don't agree with them. The Aryans came later, after the Dravidians.

I am really sick of hearing eurasian steppes....it seems to be the birthground of everything that actually happened in India. If such a great civilization happened there from where all the people migrated in huge numbers to all over world (Europe, India, Mesopotamia, Syria, China) where are the remains. Not a piece of stone tool has been found there.

As such aryans are the original people of india

If you follow rig veda story becomes very clear. Look no further. Rig Veda is all about aryan expansion. It originates (in earliest sections) near Varanasi , Uttar Pradesh, India. later parts were composed in Punjab (Sapta Sindhu). Now in Uttar Pradesh, R1a1 is highest in India (>50% population), not in north western india. Rig Veda has mention of several leaving India. These tribes became greeks, slavs, persians, tocharians, etc.. The remains of these civilizations (actually forefathers of all these nationalities are very very clearly Indian - mittani in syria, arkeim in russia, and several others). genetic imprints are also very clear.


From India, primarily with stunning technologies, chariots, iron tools, aryans spread all over eurasia, therefore we see these genetically derived populations speaking langauges derived from old indic aryan language all over europe and asia...

[Stevo]

From India, primarily with stunning technologies, chariots, iron tools, aryans spread all over eurasia, therefore we see these genetically derived populations speaking langauges derived from old indic aryan language all over europe and asia...

While it is possible that R first arose in India (I'm not arguing against that idea, although I think Central Asia more likely), the consensus among linguists is that centum Indo-European is actually older than satem Indo-European.

The Indo-Iranian languages are all satem languages.

It makes sense that the bearers of y-haplogroup R spoke the Eurasiatic language common at one time to the descendants of K (L, M, N, O, P, Q and R), and that language developed among the Rs (or R1s) into Proto-Indo-European.

The R1bs went West, carrying the more archaic centum Indo-European with them. R1as developed the satem innovation, which is common to the areas where R1as predominate.

[R1a_M17_India]

R1a subclades

Does anyone know whats more possible in India ? R1a1* or R1a1b ? Currently my results are hung between these two possibilities and I am trying to guess

Another question - If I have a 12/12 matches with people in England or Germany, would those people too be in either R1a1* or R1a1b? Are 12/12 matches possible across subclades?

[Kaiser]

R1a_M17_India:
Check my post at:

http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/showthread.php?p=27596#post27596

[Stevo]

R1a men: come over and vote in the What's Your Y-Haplogroup? poll, please.

Stand up and be counted, gentlemen!

While you're over there, post something, and be sure to vote in the What Kind of an R Are You? poll.

Thanks, my R brothers!

(Kaiser - I'm not leaving R2s out, but I suspect you've already voted. If not, then please come vote.)

[Noaide]

Table 1 on this article is quite impressive when it comes to overview of R1b (and also R1a) in different European populations.

Noaide

[R1a_M17_India]

R1a_M17_India:
Check my post at:
http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/s...7596#post27596

thanks Kaiser. One more question -
Are 12/12 matches possible across subclades?

[milestone]

Kushash, if r1a originated in India, why then it is not concentric around India. It took one way, one track traffic, north only. It seems like most hyplotypes spread in a concentric way from the root location.

Another thing, R is derived from the same root as P,Q,N,O. Why they are not present in India as well, just r1a. The only explanation would be that P,Q,N,O derived from r1a somewhere in eurasia.It doesn't seems likely.Now, does it?

[lgmayka]

Are 12/12 matches possible across subclades?

Yes, that can happen. For example, J1 and J2 sometimes have the same 12 markers, and G and G2 sometimes can't be told apart at 12 markers either.

[Stevo]

Table 1 on this article is quite impressive when it comes to overview of R1b (and also R1a) in different European populations.

Noaide

It tends to show what I noticed awhile ago, i.e., that high levels of R1a tend to correspond with satem-speaking Indo-European regions, while high levels of R1b correspond with centum-speaking Indo-European areas.

I was kind of surprised, however, at the fairly significant level of R1b in Croatia, which explains my slow-marker matches there. According to that table, R1b is pretty stout among the Czechs and Slovaks (around 35%). I have matches among those folks, too.

I also have a real taste for Pilsner Urquell beer, the original Czech Pilsner.

Maybe it's hereditary?

[sitw]

1Ra origin in India?

Table 1 on this article is quite impressive when it comes to overview of R1b (and also R1a) in different European populations.

Noaide

Based on the scientific studies, R1a prevails in India's upper casts. It is rather doubtful that mostly India's upper casts have spread this haplogroup north west so significantly. It is more reasonable to assume vise versa, as fits the common opinion, that R1a has been brought into India. A fair amount of analyses has been done to prove this theory, and this is why it currently prevails.
This haplogroup has been spread by Indo-European speakers not just to India, but into eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and middle Asia. I originate from Ukraine (where my known ancestors used to live) carry this haplogroup and found quite a few full 12 markers matches with Scandinavian and Scottish (Shetland) folks. All of them carry R1a.

[J Man]

Based on the scientific studies, R1a prevails in India's upper casts. It is rather doubtful that mostly India's upper casts have spread this haplogroup north west so significantly. It is more reasonable to assume vise versa, as fits the common opinion, that R1a has been brought into India. A fair amount of analyses has been done to prove this theory, and this is why it currently prevails.
This haplogroup has been spread by Indo-European speakers not just to India, but into eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and middle Asia. I originate from Ukraine (where my known ancestors used to live) carry this haplogroup and found quite a few full 12 markers matches with Scandinavian and Scottish (Shetland) folks. All of them carry R1a.

I thought that R1a was supposed to have originated in the area of the Ukraine? Isn't that what most of the geneticists have said? Maybe it is native to Eastern Europe and has been there for a very long time and spread out from there? You have to look for diversity for origins of haplogroups.



Y-DNA : J2a*

[lgmayka]

I thought that R1a was supposed to have originated in the area of the Ukraine?

One interpretation of Sengupta's 2006 research is that R1a originated long ago in Pakistan, and promptly spread to western India. Much later, after R1a had spread to Central Asia and Ukraine, it also descended upon northern India.

If I read Sengupta correctly, R1a has higher percentages in northern India, but much larger STR variance (typically considered a sign of haplogroup age) in western India.

[Kaiser]

Within South Asia, the highest frequency of R1a is in Southern Baluchistan (Pakistan) and Uttar Pradesh (India). On the other hand, the microsatellite variation is highest in Baluchistan, with a eastward clinal spread. Taken together, it can be surmised that at least in South Asia, Baluchistan is the original home of R1a.

I quote from Sengupta's paper: "Interestingly, within India, R1a1-M17, R2-124, and L1-M76 display considerable frequency and HG-associated microsatellite variance. The widespread geographic distribution of HG R1a1-M17 across Eurasia and the current absence of informative subdivisions defined by binary markers leave uncertain the geographic origin of HG R1a1-M17. However, the contour map of R1a1-M17 variance shows the highest variance in the northwestern region of India. (Baluchistan, as seen in Fig 4 of the paper: Spatial frequency and mean microsatellite variance distributions of Y-chromosome HGs in present-day India and Pakistan).

[J Man]

One interpretation of Sengupta's 2006 research is that R1a originated long ago in Pakistan, and promptly spread to western India. Much later, after R1a had spread to Central Asia and Ukraine, it also descended upon northern India.

If I read Sengupta correctly, R1a has higher percentages in northern India, but much larger STR variance (typically considered a sign of haplogroup age) in western India.

Interesting, if R1a did spread from western India then I do not think that they would have originally been Indo-European speakers.




Y-DNA: J2a*