Haplogroup R1a

[odedra]

Hi,

I am part of a unique tribal caste called mers they are a collection of nomadic rajput warrior tribes who finally settled in the coastal city of Porbandar in Gujarat.Some clans hailing from Rajasthan and others like my paternal linage from central asia R1a. I want to delve deeper and trace the integration. They speak their own style dialect in gujuarati, and have a unique form of raas dandiya a form of the folk dance originating from the times of Lord Krishna. It displays bravery and valour. Any ideas?

Amit

[MrHappy]

R1a (or R1a1 more precisely) is not really a Kurgan, Indo-European, or Aryan haplogroup.

It spread before the Kurgans existed, most probably from central Asia, over a large area from Central North Europe to South India.

This is why we now see tribal Indians in the south carrying R1a1, even thought they don't really have any genetic links to Indo-European peoples. That's not to say R1a1 did not enter India with Indo-Europeans, because it probably did, but it was already there much earlier.

So yes, there was a large early spread of R1a1, followed by later subsequent spreads thanks to the Kurgans, Scythians, Slavs and Vikings.

The relatively large incidence of R1a1 in Scandinavia can be explained by the fact that its population was within the range of the early expansion of R1a1, and also its geographic proximity to Eastern Europe, where R1a1 reaches levels of over 60%.

[father_R2]

R1a (or R1a1 more precisely) is not really a Kurgan, Indo-European, or Aryan haplogroup.

R1a1 is an Aryan haplogroup as Aryan or Arya doesn't indicate racial identity but just a cultural identity. The people who developed that culture happened to belong to Haplogroup R1a1, however, not all R1a1 people belonged to Aryan culture around that time(especially in South and Central-East of India and may be in Northern Europe) and at present Indians have the full rights over that identity since they are the only people on the face of the earth to keep that culture alive. And probably, the proto-Aryan countries(belonging to RgVedic) period like Central Asia and Eastern Europe ceased to be culturally Aryans long back.

[MrHappy]

R1a1 is an Aryan haplogroup as Aryan or Arya doesn't indicate racial identity but just a cultural identity. The people who developed that culture happened to belong to Haplogroup R1a1, however, not all R1a1 people belonged to Aryan culture around that time(especially in South and Central-East of India and may be in Northern Europe) and at present Indians have the full rights over that identity since they are the only people on the face of the earth to keep that culture alive. And probably, the proto-Aryan countries(belonging to RgVedic) period like Central Asia and Eastern Europe ceased to be culturally Aryans long back.

For R1a1 to ba an Aryan haplogroup it would have to have its origins in an Aryan population. In other words, the Aryans would have to be the source of the original R1a1 mutation.

However, this is not true. R1a1 existed before the Aryan or Indo-European cultural/language group formed.

R1a1 is the Aurignacian marker.

[father_R2]

For R1a1 to ba an Aryan haplogroup it would have to have its origins in an Aryan population. In other words, the Aryans would have to be the source of the original R1a1 mutation.

A section of R1a1 population developed Aryan/Vedic culture. What do you mean by "Aryan population"?

[MrHappy]

A section of R1a1 population developed Aryan/Vedic culture. What do you mean by "Aryan population"?

Yes, but for R1a1 to be an Aryan haplogroup it would have to be the other way around...a section of the Aryan population would've had to develop R1a1.

But R1a1 originated before any Aryans were around, so the mutation is not an Aryan one strictly speaking...it's just common in Aryan populations.

[father_R2]

it's just common in Aryan populations.

The Aryan population is the population that practices Vedic culture. At present only Indians are Aryans. If you want to define Aryan population based on genetic lineages then you have to consider composition of Indian population. As you know Indian population lacks pre-historic R1b, E3b and I(especially, upper castes). Therefore, non-Indian populations that lack all these haplogroups but have R1a1 could be called Aryan. There are none beyond India and that's the precise reason why erstwhile Indians unfairly branded non-Indians "mlechchas". At present only India has Aryan upper castes, Aryan middle castes, Aryan lower castes and Aryan tribals .

[vraatyah]

The Aryan population is the population that practices Vedic culture.

That's a perfect definition. There is nothing to add.

As you know Indian population lacks pre-historic R1b, E3b and I(especially, upper castes). Therefore, non-Indian populations that lack all these haplogroups but have R1a1 could be called Aryan. There are none beyond India and that's the precise reason why erstwhile Indians unfairly branded non-Indians "mlechchas". At present only India has Aryan upper castes, Aryan middle castes, Aryan lower castes and Aryan tribals .

I agree. The above definition describes what a present day Indian population is and what genetic "profile" it should match, and nothing else.

>the proto-Aryan countries(belonging to RgVedic) period like Central Asia and Eastern Europe ceased to be culturally Aryans long back

hmm.. Sounds odd to me. Do you consider RV to be equal to the IE? I believe, you don't.

[R1a_M17_India]

Aryan

at present Indians have the full rights over that identity since they are the only people on the face of the earth to keep that culture alive. And probably, the proto-Aryan countries(belonging to RgVedic) period like Central Asia and Eastern Europe ceased to be culturally Aryans long back.

I like this We need to ask Iran to change its name and everybody else to stop abusing the word Arya unless they 'reconvert' culturally to their roots. Beautiful point!

however, not all R1a1 people belonged to Aryan culture around that time(especially in South and Central-East of India and may be in Northern Europe)

Correction - Just the way you differentiated geographically, you need to also differentiate between groups within North and South India again. Not all R1a1 in North India descend from the Vedic people, and not all R1a1 in South India are non-Vedic, there were migrations from North to South.

[father_R2]

Correction - Just the way you differentiated geographically, you need to also differentiate between groups within North and South India again. Not all R1a1 in North India descend from the Vedic people, and not all R1a1 in South India are non-Vedic, there were migrations from North to South.

I stand-by my words. I consider Vedic R1a1 people were much later migrants to these areas.

[R1a_M17_India]

I stand-by my words. I consider Vedic R1a1 people were much later migrants to these areas.

Which is what I am saying too! Read my statement again. All I am saying is that you cannot making a sweeping statement for ALL of South India or ALL of North India.

[IVAR]

12 STR test

I am from southern India and belong to Badaga community I have received my results for Genenographic project from National Geography. I am classified as R1a1 Hapologroup. It is a 12 STR test. I want to have high resolution test to identify MRCA (Most recent common ancestor) to 5 generation. What sort of test is available to achieve this. Can my existing results can be used to reduce the test price in FtDNA. Any suggestion.
Thanks

[lgmayka]

I have received my results for Genenographic project from National Geography. I am classified as R1a1 Hapologroup. It is a 12 STR test. I want to have high resolution test to identify MRCA (Most recent common ancestor) to 5 generation. What sort of test is available to achieve this. Can my existing results can be used to reduce the test price in FtDNA.

http://www.familytreedna.com/ftdna_genographic.html#q8

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[msreddy]

R1a M17

Nice to see your message.

My DNA test also shows that I belong to : R1a M17 .
I am from Andhra Pradesh, Guntur district,India.
The R1a group is predominantly in Europe and mostly eastern Europe .The chart and the passage over thousands of years back in to India , carrying Proto Indo European languages is very interesting.
The R1a studies shows that they are remotely connected to the Vikings . Perhaps more extensive analysis will be able to confirm this .

my email address : [email protected].
If any one has got additional information on this , I will be happy to be associated . M.S.Reddy

I am also a Haplogroup R1A( M17) and belong to the kodava community settled in the western ghats in Southern India. www.kodavas.org

I am amazed to read your posts and am super interested to dive deeper into the study of human migrations and study especially the R1A. I would love to hear from other members to better understand the reach of the genetic marker. You can reach me at [email protected] if you have any questions or thoughts!

Cheers

Somanna

[Stevo]

Nice to see your message.

My DNA test also shows that I belong to : R1a M17 .
I am from Andhra Pradesh, Guntur district,India.
The R1a group is predominantly in Europe and mostly eastern Europe .The chart and the passage over thousands of years back in to India , carrying Proto Indo European languages is very interesting.
The R1a studies shows that they are remotely connected to the Vikings . Perhaps more extensive analysis will be able to confirm this .

my email address : [email protected].
If any one has got additional information on this , I will be happy to be associated . M.S.Reddy

Welcome, msreddy!

I am R1b1c, not R1a, but a brother R anyway.

Lately it seems very few folks here want to discuss R1a, but I am very much interested in it.

I am also curious. I read somewhere that there is a fairly high level of R1b in Andhra Pradesh. Do you know whether or not that is true?

Anyway, I would like to learn about R1a and am willing to discuss it with you.