Haplogroup R1a

[Kir]

Hrodberht = Grego Olsena?

[Rudra]

Hyperaggressive Dravidian revisionist fanatics are not interested in the truth about Indo-Germanic influence in India but are consumed in promoting their own ahistorical, victomological, Marxoid agenda.

I agree, this fits fatherR to the T.

His views are better off on a hate site like www.dalitstan.com

[Kir]

I agree, this fits fatherR to the T.

Before you speak of sites and individual that divides Indians, take a closer look at the LOTR Nord you are quoting.

http://www.panf.info/upload/showthread.php?t=152

I don’t know about you Rudra, but I’m weary of such individuals, dividing Indians on religious and ethnic grounds, in order to prove their superiority. IMO IE spread with J2a, while R1a is associated with the LGM reexpansion. I also change my opinion about Dravidian languages. It seems more likely that they originated indigenously, and may have spread via plant domestication. Also the connection with Elamite and Dravidian seems weak, as the late Sergei Starostin rejects such a hypothesis put forth, after a mass comparison of numerous Macro-Language families. Nowhere have I seen the comparative method used to connect Elamite with Dravidian. Had Elamite been an agricultural language, it would have been a diverse language in western Asia, but this is certainly not the case; only Semitic assumed that role. Major languages associated with agriculture are Austro-Asiatic, Austronesian, Bantu, and Afro-Asiatic, so why not Indo-European? As you can see languages don’t disperse with Hunters or Nords, but with farmers who are capable of maintain a large population size, and expanding whenever necessary. These theories put forth by 19th century racialist are incompatible with genetics, and also what we are currently learning about Archaeology in South Asia. I never understood why such theories gain widespread acceptance.

[fatherR]

I agree, this fits fatherR to the T.

His views are better off on a hate site like www.dalitstan.com

Rudra, it's really unfortunate that you are consumed by Nordicist propaganda. You see you shouldn't have shown your true colours while accusing me anti-Hindu, Dravidic, Dalitist prejudices.

This is nothing but Dravid influence Manju, of which you are a member.

Yes, I'm linguistically Dravidian.

How very strangely you bring in only one community, do you have some hidden hatred? Dravidism perhaps? Is this a personal agenda against caste?

No. What is Dravidism? If you mean personal agenda against that one caste. No. But, I don't agree with castes in general. However, by supporting that Nordicist you have shown what is your true feelings about caste. Anyway, I'm sure you are ignorant about South Indian society.

I must say your coherence is degenrating with each further post.

At least, I'm trying to understand you.

To Hrodberht,

victomological

And that is funny.

[Rudra]

If you mean personal agenda against that one caste. No.

It will take you a long time to explain the Brahmin bashing you did on this forum.

However, by supporting that Nordicist

Please dont assume that I support him in general, I agreed with him at that point about your agenda.

Anyway, I'm sure you are ignorant about South Indian society.

Again, a bad conclusion, as bad as your theories. I am South Indian and speak Dravidian. All I am saying is that there exist differences between castes, only a blind man can ignore that. I am NOT saying this means superiority of some castes, which you are implictly assuming is the principle for supporting the migration theory.

Its sad to find people on either side who ridicule Dravidians or hate upper castes. Thats why I dont agree with Dravidian parties and their agenda

[Rudra]

I don’t know about you Rudra, but I’m weary of such individuals, dividing Indians on religious and ethnic grounds, in order to prove their superiority.

Why do you assume that if I support the IE expansion theory, I support superiority of some castes?

As far fatherR's posts go, at some stages he supports the fact that upper castes migrated to South India, at other stages he says that all castes have very few differences. This is contradictory. If people had similar origins, they would have migrated together and every state in India would have the same composition.

I dont need a Max Mueller or a Stephen Oppenheimer to tell me the difference between a tribal and a Brahmin, I can see that difference without any prejudices.

[Hrodberht]

I am an American of Norman-Sicilian descent and a student of general Indo-European history. I am not a so-called "Nordicist". I have never been to the "pan-Aryan" forum, which looks like demagogic racial marxism from a cursory glance.

My point was that if a genius scientist and unbiased researcher like Spencer Wells has no doubt the Vedic-Aryans were northern intruders to India and established the caste system, one has to have extremely good reasons to disagree with him. Only ideologues would dispute this well-founded and obvious history.

"The Aryans came from outside India. We actually have genetic evidence for that...there is clear evidence that there was a heavy migration from the steppes down towards India."

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/27inter.htm

[fatherR]

I am not a so-called "Nordicist".

All I can say, your journey from Indra to Spencer Wells is really revolutionary. Perhaps, we should give Spencer Wells five years time.

[fatherR]

If people had similar origins, they would have migrated together.

No.

I dont need a Max Mueller or a Stephen Oppenheimer to tell me the difference between a tribal and a Brahmin, I can see that difference without any prejudices.

You mean appearance?

Again, a bad conclusion, as bad as your theories. I am South Indian and speak Dravidian.

I didn't conclude that you are a North Indian.

It will take you a long time to explain the Brahmin bashing you did on this forum.

I don't have to. 1. You are not representative of all brahmins. 2. All brahmins don't think like you. 3. The Saivite brahmins thing was told by a brahmin himself.

[Kir]

My point was that if a genius scientist and unbiased researcher like Spencer Wells has no doubt the Vedic-Aryans were northern intruders to India and established the caste system, one has to have extremely good reasons to disagree with him. Only ideologues would dispute this well-founded and obvious history.

Good point, an all knowing genius like Spencer wells should never be questioned. Using your logic Marx and company, shouldn’t be refuted, after all he was a genius, wasn’t he? Sorry buddy but that’s not how science works; hypothesis are put forth, and if they stand the test of time then they are accepted, if they don’t explain reality well then they are ultimately rejected. Theories compete, and the best one wins. Spencer wells’ theory is on shaky foundation at the moment.

Only ideologues would dispute this well-founded and obvious history.

Nobody is disputing an Indo-European migration to India; I believe the thread was about R1a, which probably reflects the movement of Ice Age hunters into South Asia 15,000 years ago, long before “Indo-Europeans”. Also, R1a is stratified into two clusters, one belonging to Indian tribes/Caste, and non-Indians, meaning that the R1a in Indian is unlikely to reflect recent gene flow.

"The Aryans came from outside India. We actually have genetic evidence for that...there is clear evidence that there was a heavy migration from the steppes down towards India."

That’s incorrect, if one assumes what they are trying to prove, any argument will suddenly become valid. Spencer Wells blunder is assuming R1a is solely associated with “Aryans”. As it has been shown in a 2006 paper, this many not be the case. Btw most of Indian mtDNA and Y-chromosomes are dissimilar to Near Easterners and Europeans and a mass influx from Central Asian is most unlikely. Like most human groups South Asian genetic variation was shaped during the early Holocene and the Palaeolithic. Why does your expertise fail here? Simple, language relations only extend 12,000 years into the past.

[Kir]

Why do you assume that if I support the IE expansion theory, I support superiority of some castes?

I didn’t assume your implication, and I wasn’t referring to you at all.(Lol)

I dont need a Max Mueller or a Stephen Oppenheimer to tell me the difference between a tribal and a Brahmin, I can see that difference without any prejudices.

The most notable difference seen in the South Asian groups is between tribes and caste. The most frequent haplogroup in Tribes is H-M69 and F-M89, with H being common in castes. IMO The caste System distinguishes Palaeolithic Indians from Neolithic ones. Not surprisingly Neolithic Indians make up 90% if the populations. As Palaeolithic Indians trade in their in their Bow and Arrow, for a hoe and plough, their genes become more like Neolithic Indians. Clearly the process by which Neolithics replace the Palaeolithics is still occurring from when it began 6000 years ago, and I sometimes wonder if it’s a type of self organization, to maintain the Neolithic component seen in most Indian, or slow down the influx of Palaeolithic genes, from Indians in Transition. I think the caste system may have an evolutionary basis, but I could be wrong.

[fatherR]

I sometimes wonder if it’s a type of self organization, to maintain the Neolithic component seen in most Indian, or slow down the influx of Palaeolithic genes, from Indians in Transition. I think the caste system may have an evolutionary basis, but I could be wrong.

Do you think tribal distribution in India support that assumption?

http://tribal.nic.in/indiamap.html

[derinos]

Derinos

The caste system in any closed or localised group entity, (tribe? race? state? island? valley?continent?) would predictably tend to maintain DNA haplogroup "apartheit". Since the custom predated modern genetic knowledge, its motivation may have been based on an assumption (right or wrong) that desirable social elitism can be genetically transmitted. Or you could call it "greedy racist prejudice".
Historically, religion has also at times acted as basis for a caste system. Yugoslavia was a recent alarming example.

[fatherR]

Since the custom predated modern genetic knowledge, its motivation may have been based on an assumption (right or wrong) that desirable social elitism can be genetically transmitted.

No. It was not the case with caste system.

[banrjeer]

I didn’t assume your implication, and I wasn’t referring to you at all.(Lol)



The most notable difference seen in the South Asian groups is between tribes and caste. The most frequent haplogroup in Tribes is H-M69 and F-M89, with H being common in castes. IMO The caste System distinguishes Palaeolithic Indians from Neolithic ones. Not surprisingly Neolithic Indians make up 90% if the populations. As Palaeolithic Indians trade in their in their Bow and Arrow, for a hoe and plough, their genes become more like Neolithic Indians. Clearly the process by which Neolithics replace the Palaeolithics is still occurring from when it began 6000 years ago, and I sometimes wonder if it’s a type of self organization, to maintain the Neolithic component seen in most Indian, or slow down the influx of Palaeolithic genes, from Indians in Transition. I think the caste system may have an evolutionary basis, but I could be wrong.

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Over such a vast area the first early adopters of agriculture need not have been a homogenous group but would have been a subset. Their signature would have been amplified at faster rate than slow adopters. Quite possibly the higher caste populations just happen to be the 1st ones to adopt agrarian mode of life. social stratificaion afterall is a symptom of a society reaching a critical mass.

After going through the more recent articles on genetic sampling in India it seems that although the different castes and tribes are relatively isolated from each other they basically draw from the same gene pool.

The so called R1a aryan wonderboy gene happens to have a high diversity in tribals. It even has variants that not seen in caste populations. Clearly this does not gel with the unidirectional male mediated admixture model.

R1a is not a good candidate for IE spread in India.