Haplogroup R1a

[cobra]

May I ask, which country do you trace your origin to? Might be interesting to draw inferences, even if they are guesses

I am an Ethnic Armenian. Historic Armenia is located roughly in the general area where Turkey and the three former ex-Soviet republics (including present-day Armenia) of the Caucasus meet. My Grand-Father was also an ethnic Armenian from central Anatolia, where a lot Armenians were located. Armenians have a very diverse genetic lineage, since they have interacted with ancient Semites (Assyrians), Jews, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Greeks, etc. The dominant haplogroups are J (~30%), R1b (~20%), F (~20%) and G (~10%).
Only 2% are R*/R2. Not a lot is known about R*/R2. The main known fact is that R*/R2 is disproportionately high among South Indian Dravidians. Based on the (very basic) research I have done, about 95%-98% of R*/R2 individuals are from India. In the FTDNA database, I have one 1-step match from India, and two 2-step matches, also from India. There is more diversity when it goes to 3-step and 4-step. Matches from India and Sri Lanka appear, but a number of matches from Eastern European countries appear as well (Latvia, Hungary, Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine), as well as 1 from Cuba. One Indian-tribal match is 2-step, while one is 3-step. On ysearch, the closest matches are 1 3-step from Cuba, and 4 4-steps from Italy, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia. Probably all the ones from ysearch, expect for the Italian 4-step match, are the same as those on FTDNA.

[R1a_M17_India]

Armenia

I am an Ethnic Armenian. Historic Armenia is located roughly in the general area where Turkey and the three former ex-Soviet republics (including present-day Armenia) of the Caucasus meet. My Grand-Father was also an ethnic Armenian from central Anatolia, where a lot Armenians were located. Armenians have a very diverse genetic lineage, since they have interacted with ancient Semites (Assyrians), Jews, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Greeks, etc. The dominant haplogroups are J (~30%), R1b (~20%), F (~20%) and G (~10%).
Only 2% are R*/R2. Not a lot is known about R*/R2. The main known fact is that R*/R2 is disproportionately high among South Indian Dravidians. Based on the (very basic) research I have done, about 95%-98% of R*/R2 individuals are from India. In the FTDNA database, I have one 1-step match from India, and two 2-step matches, also from India. There is more diversity when it goes to 3-step and 4-step. Matches from India and Sri Lanka appear, but a number of matches from Eastern European countries appear as well (Latvia, Hungary, Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine), as well as 1 from Cuba. One Indian-tribal match is 2-step, while one is 3-step. On ysearch, the closest matches are 1 3-step from Cuba, and 4 4-steps from Italy, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia. Probably all the ones from ysearch, expect for the Italian 4-step match, are the same as those on FTDNA.

Very Interesting!! I was under the impression that Armenia would be heavily R1a. Armenid is a primary element among Ashkenazic Jews who have a high presence of R1a.

So you must be R* and and the Indian tribal was also an R*? Or are both of you R1a?

[cobra]

Very Interesting!! I was under the impression that Armenia would be heavily R1a. Armenid is a primary element among Ashkenazic Jews who have a high presence of R1a.

So you must be R* and and the Indian tribal was also an R*? Or are both of you R1a?

About 5%-10% of Armenians are R1a. Both myself and my matches are R*, not a single R1a, but there are two 4-step P* matches (1 from Belarus and 1 from India).
Though the Armenian language is Indo-European, genetically Armenians are very diverse. There is a native Caucasian presence (Haplogroup G, which is very strong among Georgians), a Middle Eastern presence (Haplogroups J, I), and a Eurasian presence (R1b, R1a, R*, P*).
I have also read about the strong presence of "Armenoid" characteristics among Jews (as well as Turks, Kurds and some Arabs), although I do not think that "Armenoid" has any specific genetic characteristic. It’s just a term for loosely defined physical characteristics. But there is a history of interaction between the two groups. Some Jewish refugees from Babylonia and Assyria settled in Armenia thousands of years ago. Also, many early Christian Jews moved to Armenia in the 1st-4th centuries to avoid persecution, since Armenia stayed relatively independent of the Christian-persecuting Roman and Persian Empires.

[fatherR]

The main known fact is that R*/R2 is disproportionately high among South Indian Dravidians.

I suppose that was previously thought to be the case. However, present studies show R2 is present in North Indians in equal frequency (~10-15%). Probably, R2 is the third largest after Haplogroup H and Haplogroup R1a1 among Indians.

[Kir]

I suppose that was previously thought to be the case. However, present studies show R2 is present in North Indians in equal frequency (~10-15%). Probably, R2 is the third largest after Haplogroup H and Haplogroup R1a1 among Indians.

Manju, if I remember correctly R2 peaks in variance and frequency in West Bengal. If you’ve seen the paper, you would notice that that they do a contour map of both variables, at the very end. IMO the overlap of the two variables is necessary in pinpointing the source of a haplogroup. R2 is frequent and diverse in the South, but more so in the East.

[fatherR]

R2 is frequent and diverse in the South, but more so in the East.

Thanks. May be in that table West Bengal is part of Northern castes. I suppose dividing Indians only North (80% of the population) and South (20%) skews up many findings . Probably, we need samples from all the states of India.

[dentate]

Cobra, my maternal uncle (Ashkenazi Jewish) is no doubt one of your 3 or 4 step matches (from Belarus, with other close matches in Latvia etc.) He had been guessed to be P* based on STR, but SNP testing appears to make him actually an R* or possibly R1*. Fact is, these are relatively rare haplogroups and little is know about their migration patterns. I am testing him also with EthnoAncestry.com to verify the classification; they apparently have also seen some P36- M242+ individuals who may form a small subgroup within Q. It all gets very confusing. The current assumption is that these haplogroups in Ashkenazim represent Central Asian/Khazar ancestry. The Khazars ruled the Caucasus for centuries and their genetic traces may explain the shared presence of these groups in Armenians, Jews and other groups. However, it does raise the possibility, if these groups are seen also in Armenia and further east in India, that they may have been present in the "Middle East" for a very long time, and if so, their presence in both Armenians and Jews may be more ancient. Bennett Greenspan has promised new data on the Sephardic Jews to appear soon. If they also have these groups it would strongly suggest an ancient Middle Eastern origin; if not, Khazar/Central Asian origin will be more likely.

[cobra]

dentate, I also ordered a test from Ethnoancestry, specifically the Marligen test, to test for M124 and others. While R1a, R1b, J, E3b and some other haplogroups are well known, I agree that geneticists are still in the process of fully understanding and characterizing the little known haplogroups. For example, some classify M124 as P1, while others classify it as R2. FTDNA says I am M207+, which I believe to be true. If Ethnoancestry says I am M124+, which is possible, it will create some confusion as to my haplogroup. Moreover, on ysearch, one of the 12 samples under haplogroup R has the following SNP test results in the comments section: “M207- P36- P27+ LLY22- M175- M20- M4- P27- M9+ M207+”. The presence of M207- and M207+ is not a typo.
I agree with your theories about the presence of these haplogroups among Jews and Armenians. I am sure that, as more samples get in through Genographic, many questions will be answered.

[Rudra]

I suppose that was previously thought to be the case. However, present studies show R2 is present in North Indians in equal frequency (~10-15%). Probably, R2 is the third largest after Haplogroup H and Haplogroup R1a1 among Indians.

Can you show some such studies? The only coherence in your posts seems to be that you ridicule India's religion despite being of Indian origin, you oppose the current theories since they don't fit in with your views.

Can you please establish your credentials in this area?

[fatherR]

Can you show some such studies?

Go thro' all the posts in this thread.

Perhaps, you should be careful while accusing me maligning India's religious traditions. I suppose, that gives legitimacy for my views even when I don't deserve it. This is especially true when secular tradition rules this field.

[Kir]

Can you show some such studies? The only coherence in your posts seems to be that you ridicule India's religion despite being of Indian origin, you oppose the current theories since they don't fit in with your views.

Can you please establish your credentials in this area?

Observe:

http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indians8xz.jpg

Paper in question:

Polarity and Temporality of High Resolution Y-chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists

[Rudra]

Go thro' all the posts in this thread.

Perhaps, you should be careful while accusing me maligning India's religious traditions. I suppose, that gives legitimacy for my views even when I don't deserve it. This is especially true when secular tradition rules this field.

I agree that secular tradition rules this field, all the more reason for you to keep those comments on relgion out, go through the posts again to see yourself respond to and bring in thoughts on religion.

On the papers, it is a selective approach presented.

[fatherR]

I agree that secular tradition rules this field, all the more reason for you to keep those comments on relgion out, go through the posts again to see yourself respond to and bring in thoughts on religion.

On the papers, it is a selective approach presented.

Perhaps, instead of me you should have directed your arguments to this post.

http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6292&postcount=7

Or to this,

Some of the migrating crowds got separated into tribes, others imposed themselves as the upper castes.

You see, the above assertion was based on a study conducted on Andhra Pradesh castes(Bamshad et al. 2001). Being an Indian you must be knowing that,
1. Some brahmins were invited to South India to do religious duties
2. Some brahmins took refuge in South India escaping from religious persecution.
Well, it looks like instead of brahmins imposing themselves upon South Indians , it's the South Indians who imposed brahmins upon themselves. The whole problem is because of the word 'imposed'.

Probably, that is the reason the better study could have been North-West Indian population, the region of origin of caste Indian society. As you said, Bamshad et al. (2001) was a very selective approach.

The present paper is also not very comprehensive. But at least it's more broader in its scope.

[Rudra]

Perhaps, instead of me you should have directed your arguments to this post.

http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6292&postcount=7

Or to this,



You see, the above assertion was based on a study conducted on Andhra Pradesh castes(Bamshad et al. 2001). Being an Indian you must be knowing that,
1. Some brahmins were invited to South India to do religious duties
2. Some brahmins took refuge in South India escaping from religious persecution.
Well, it looks like instead of brahmins imposing themselves upon South Indians , it's the South Indians who imposed brahmins upon themselves. The whole problem is because of the word 'imposed'.

Probably, that is the reason the better study could have been North-West Indian population, the region of origin of caste Indian society. As you said, Bamshad et al. (2001) was a very selective approach.

The present paper is also not very comprehensive. But at least it's more broader in its scope.

I am atleast glad you kept your ramblings on religion out of this. Thanks.

I must say your coherence is degenrating with each further post. We were discussing about your inability to talk good while talking about genetics, and about your veiws on the caste composition. Why are you quoting others on caste, when you should quoted your immature aproach of mixing genetics, religion and caste? How very strangely you bring in only one community, do you have some hidden hatred? Dravidism perhaps? Is this a personal agenda against caste?

For all your ramblings about Indra, I can only state that Brahmins, hindu priestly caste, have thrown him out long back(He is not worshipped in any temples) and in his place installed Shiva with his dark phallus and that is from Kashmir to KanyaKumari(Tamil Nadu).

This is nothing but Dravid influence Manju, of which you are a member.

Okay, at least you give some considerations for tribes. Very soon, you would be considerate to declared lower castes. Tribes and upper castes those two are opposite ends, I feel.

CONSIDERATION? PATHETIC ! That is so very demeaning for any caste by assuming superiority of some castes. You have a problem Manju! Your thoughts are an insult to this forum, get off this

[Hrodberht]

Hyperaggressive Dravidian revisionist fanatics are not interested in the truth about Indo-Germanic influence in India but are consumed in promoting their own ahistorical, victomological, Marxoid agenda.

Let's let an authority, Spencer Wells, speak:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/27inter.htm

Some people say Aryans are the original inhabitants of India. What is your view on this theory?

The Aryans came from outside India. We actually have genetic evidence for that. Very clear genetic evidence from a marker that arose on the southern steppes of Russia and the Ukraine around 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. And it subsequently spread to the east and south through Central Asia reaching India. It is on the higher frequency in the Indo-European speakers, the people who claim they are descendants of the Aryans, the Hindi speakers, the Bengalis, the other groups. Then it is at a lower frequency in the Dravidians. But there is clear evidence that there was a heavy migration from the steppes down towards India.

But some people claim that the Aryans were the original inhabitants of India. What do you have to say about this?

I don't agree with them. The Aryans came later, after the Dravidians.