Haplogroup R1a

[derinos]

What is the basis of Ethnic Origin?

This is a semi-humorous comment on the way claims for territorial rights are being justified by DNA-based ancient genetic presence on land now owned by others.
Is there no statute of limitations on such claims?
Some Welshmen want the English to go back to Germany and yield the British Isles to the Britons (after 1500 years). We know about Israel and its 2000 year claim on Palestine. Some Catholic Irish Ulstermen (500 years) want the Protestants to go back to Scotland. The Kurds have a very ancient claim to nationhood, against Turkey and Iraq. . The Basques could trump them all, over 10,000 years against upstarts France and Spain.
Now we have Macedonia, the Saami, and in the USA and Canada, the Originals or Native Americans. Dont start on the Aztecs, and Incas. And Texas?

What about a declaration that all land belongs to the occupants on a given (retroactive surprise) declaration day?

Dateline 1955.
A friend was attempting to obtain health services benefits on behalf of a Canadian disabled man. Here is the conversation, which was helped by a Finnish interpreter:

Were you in the army in WW2? Yes.
Then you may be eligible for disabled Veterans' benefits.
Good.
Where did you come from when you entered Canada?
Finland.
What passport did you have?
Russian.
(But now I have a Canadian passport.)
What were you in the Army?
A Feldswebel.
That's German, isn't it?
Yes, it was the German Army.
I don't think the Canadian Veterans department would recognise that.

I ask myself, would a YDNA test have been of any use?

[Eki]

I don't want to start a political debate here, but this note about the Khazars in an article about political uses of genetics is interesting concerning the topic discussed here:

http://www.azure.org.il/magazine/magazine.asp?Id=347&catID=4&showElement=True

"Another tactic has been to negate the Jewish claim to primacy by denying that Jews are in fact the descendants of the ancient Hebrews: “The claim made by the Zionists… that late nineteenth-century European Jews are direct descendants of ancient Palestinian Hebrews is what is preposterous here…. That they somehow descend from first-century Hebrews, despite the fact that they look like other Europeans, that they speak European languages is what is absurd.”30 Arthur Koestler’s book The Thirteenth Tribe is widely cited as proving “that most Ashkenazim are the descendants of convert Khazars [a Central Asian Turkic people that embraced Judaism to some extent in the eighth or ninth century, but disappeared from history not long thereafter] with closer ties to the Slavic people than to Semitic people.”31 They are, then, according to this view, mere interlopers in the Middle East with no historic claim to Israel."

[Eki]

I think here's a nice map showing the Volga trade route that went from Byzantine Empire through Kazhar Khaganate to Scandinavia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Varangian_routes.png

[Eki]

It seems that like Khazars, also Bnei Menashe are considered a candidate of the "lost tribes of Israel":

http://www.moshiach.com/features/tribes/burma.php

Mystery of the Ten Lost Tribes
Burma - Bnei Menashe
by Rabbi Marvin Tokayer

In the mountainous region which lies on both sides of the border between India and Myanmar (former Burma), lives the Menashe (Shinlung) tribe which numbers between 1-2 million people. They intermarried with the Chinese and look Chinese-Burmas, but the entire tribe is conscious of their Israeli ancestry.

Among the tribe of Menashe we can see the custom of animal sacrifice in the same way which had been done among the Ten Tribes of Israel.

The word Menashe appears often in their poetry and prayer. It is the name of their ancestor and they call themselves children of Menashe (Beni Menashe). When they pray, they say, "Oh, God of Menashe," which is from the name Manasseh, one of the Ten Lost Tribe of Israel

[Eki]

Eki, No idea, really. But I know of a minor Jewish presence in North East India (Manipur & Mizoram); they are called Beni Menashe. Their Y-DNA composition has not been recorded and I don't know if they would link up with the Khazars, genetically or linguistically.

That's an interesting piece of information that there are Jewish in North East India. Even if they wouldn't be linguistically linked to Kazhars, it didn't necessarily prove they weren't linked. As we know from migrants of today, their language can change in just two or three generations.

[Kaiser]

Kaiser: I also had an autosomal match with Kachari (Northeast India). Do you know if there's a known link between Kachari and Kazhars? The names have a same ring, in my opinion.

Eki, No idea, really. But I know of a minor Jewish presence in North East India (Manipur & Mizoram); they are called Beni Menashe. Their Y-DNA composition has not been recorded and I don't know if they would link up with the Khazars, genetically or linguistically.

[Eki]

It's also interesting that according to Dupya et al ( http://vetinari.sitesled.com/norway.pdf ), the highest percentage of R1a in Norway is in the Middle Norway (31.5%) and according to Lappalainen et al ( http://vetinari.sitesled.com/finns.pdf ), the highest percentage of R1a1 in Finland is in Southern Ostrobothnia of west-central Finland (19%).

I can't find any good explanation for why R1a would have gone past southern Scandinavia or southern Finland before settling. I think it's more logical to assume they didn't, because they went straight above it to central Scandinavia.

Archaeological evidence for example in Högom, suggest that there was a petty kingdom in central Sweden around 600 AD. I think the trading route to central Norway might have gone through it:

http://194.165.231.32/hemma/pramqvist/hogom.html

[sitw]

It's also interesting to notice that the Khazars are said to have converted to Judaism. Maybe that explains my autosomal match with the Ashkenazi Jews in Budapest?

Eki has touched an interesting topic. According to the popular speculations, Khazars have largely contributed to the spread of Judaism across southern Russia, Ukraine and other parts of Europe. Eki's matches with Ashkenazi Jews might come from the very same source as probably my own matches (I am of Ashkenazi background) with people of Scandinavian heritage (surprisingly not with Russians or Ukrainians) and some with Indians. There is a possibility that the strong genetic link exists between Scandinavia/Finland and Asia of which Khazars appears a central piece and R1a distribution might serve as a relative evidence.
The results provided by Shetland Islands genealogical project that Eki has indicated, also somewhat add to this theory.

[Eki]

Kaiser: I also had an autosomal match with Kachari (Northeast India). Do you know if there's a known link between Kachari and Kazhars? The names have a same ring, in my opinion.

[Kaiser]

R1a>Nepal>India>Pakistan>Finland>Sea-shells>Khazars....

I am not aware of Khazar Y-DNA composition, but a good proportion (50%) of Haplogroup R2 on ySearch database are Jewish of East European (Hungary, Ukraine, Latvia) extraction. (The other half of R2 is of South Asian origin.) It has been speculated that Khazars may be the precursors of the this Jewish element amongst R2. The Western Caspian region that includes Astrakhan, Kalmykia, Stavropol, Dagestan and Chechnya has a sizeable incidence of Haplogroup R2 with Chechens topping at 16%. However, the distribution of R1a in erstwhile Khazar territory hovers around 5-6%, with Abazinians topping at 14%. (Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the Caucasus, I. Nasidze, 2004.)

In its heyday, Khazar territory touched Baltic states, so trading and socio-cultural contacts (including transfer of genetic material) between Baltic/Scandanivia and Khazar 'Khaganate' is entirely plausible.

The idea behind post about Khazars was to reaffirm their minor but important R1a and R2 contribution to the East European and Scandanavian gene pool.

[Eki]

It's also interesting to notice that the Khazars are said to have converted to Judaism. Maybe that explains my autosomal match with the Ashkenazi Jews in Budapest?

[Eki]

[url]
It may be noted that the sea-shell trade route pointed out by Durante does not go much beyond Iran and Mesopotomia. Wonder what is the source of the Finland-India sea-shell trade (and R1a exchange)?

The source (a book in Finnish) that mentioned the seashells believes the route went through the Khazar State:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

The following note in the above Wikipedia article is interesting considering the common stereotype associated with the Vikings (it must be noted here that "handsome" is just a matter of taste of the Arab writer):

"The Khazars' tribal structure is not well understood. They were divided between Ak-Khazars ("White Khazars") and Kara-Khazars ("Black Khazars"). The Arab writer Istakhri claimed that the White Khazars were strikingly handsome with reddish hair, white skin and blue eyes while the Black Khazars were swarthy verging on deep black as if they were some kind of Indian. Most scholars, however, dispute this."

[Kaiser]

Sea Shell Trade & R1a

Necklace made out of seashells that grow in India and were used as money there were found in Southern Ostrobothnia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokhta_Koh (My article)

"Silvio Durante's study (1979) of marine shells from India and their appearance in the archaeological record in such distant sites as Tepe Yahya and Shahr-i-Sokhta in Iran, as well as in the Indus Valley, sheds light on the ancient trading routes of certain types of shells which are specifically and exclusively found along the Indian coastline proper. Durante primarily discusses the marine shell Xancus pyrum and the fact that it was traded whole and intact, then worked or reworked (into jewellry? sic) at its destination site, perhaps then moving on to other locations. The importance of this specific shell is that Xancus pyrum has a very limited geographic distribution and thus has almost the same significance in the field of shells as that of lapis lazuli in the context of mineral resources (as regards the determination of the possible routes along which a locally unavailable raw material is transported from a well-defined place of origin to the place where it is processed and, as also in the case of Xancus pyrum, consumed). Perhaps, as these shells crossed so many cultural hands, they were left unworked in order for the final owner or consumer to work the raw material into a style and usage specific to their region."

It may be noted that the sea-shell trade route pointed out by Durante does not go much beyond Iran and Mesopotomia. Wonder what is the source of the Finland-India sea-shell trade (and R1a exchange)?

[Eki]

Eki: Nepal should have a high concentration of R1a, since it is just next to the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh which is rich in R1a. Genetic matches of peoples so far apart geographically are intriguing, but possible. This possibility is more profound if we assume the place of origin to be somewhere between Nepal and Norway, with omnidirectional migrations resulting in the spread as we see it today. Poland & Ukraine fit in just fine. For Indian/Nepali R1a to spread out as far as Scandinavia (or vice versa) seems a bit far-fetched, unless there is a study to the contrary. Amazing stuff anyway!

Archaeological findings (dated about 500 to 800 AD) in Finnish Southern Ostrobothnia suggest that there might have been a trade route from central Scandinavia through Finland all the way to India. Necklace made out of seashells that grow in India and were used as money there were found in Southern Ostrobothnia.

Curiously, according to Lappalainen et al, the frequency of R1a in Finland is the highest in Southern Ostrobothnia. Southern Ostrobothnia had about 19% of R1a, while the average in whole Finland was only 7%:

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/finns.pdf

[Kaiser]

Parsi Y-DNA Composition

As for Parsis whose influx into India (Gujerat-Ahmedabad and Maharashtra-Mumbai) and Pakistan (Sindh-Karachi) was (intriguingly) largely male-mediated, have the following Y-Chromosome composition:

J1/J2a,b = 40%; R1b3 = 27%; L = 18%; R1a = 8%; E1/E2 (YAP) = 5%.

I stand corrected on the above breakdown posted previously. I had erred in converting the old denomination of Haplogroup 1 as simply R1b. As a matter of fact, it includes P*, P1 (Now R2), R*, R1 and R1b* through R1b8.

So instead of R1b3 = 27%, amend to read (old) Haplogroup 1 ie: P*, R2, R*, R1 and R1b* through R1b8 = 27%.

The rest of the figures correspond correctly after conversion.

PS: Thanks Manju, for pointing out the error.